Posted by Jersey_Boy on 3/17/06 8:32am
Msg #106126

My first cancellation after accepting an assignment.

Last night was the first time I ever cancelled an assignment after accepting a job and receiving a confirmation.

When this particular company called me, they requested a simple refi w/ edocs about 15 miles one way. They offered $100, I asked for $125. When they told me they'd have to continue shopping around, I asked if we could meet in the middle at $112.00. It was agreed.

I received a confirmation by email that shows the agree fee at $112 (if the loan closes) and a $30 trip fee if the borrowers refuse to sign.

I replied back: Your confirmation has been received, all is fine except the trip fee. I am unable to controll the terms of the loan or the borrowers willingness to sign. Therefore, If I print the docs and attend the signing as scheduled, I expect full fee, even if the borrowers refuse to sign. Please update your confirmation to show full fee if borrowers refuse to sign. If you are unable to do this, I will have to decline to accept the assignment.

They replied back: The closing confirmation is rescinded due to the terms are
not acceptable to you. I understand your position but I can not afford to pay a full fee if my
office does not receive a fee if the loan does not close.


---Oh well, nothing lost. I don't work for trip fees.

Reply by LilyMD on 3/17/06 8:42am
Msg #106127

Good for you! I, too, will not accept a reduction in fees if the borrower cancels --- anytime. These are things I can't control.

Reply by Calnotary on 3/17/06 9:06am
Msg #106136

When I receive a Confirmation and if they didnt mention or I didnt ask when they assigned the
signing, I reply the CL saying that my fee is not contingent upon loan funding. If they dont say
anything that means they accepted. Hope Im doing ok, thanks.

Reply by MA_SA on 3/17/06 9:06am
Msg #106137

hmm. well, i do respect your position, but i think you just have to accept the fact that sometimes you just have to eat the cost of a trip if a borrower doesnt sign. i rarely have borrowers that dont sign. and it must hurt you, doesnt it? i mean, you were not able to do this closing...

brian

Reply by Roger_OH on 3/17/06 9:14am
Msg #106144

Agree with Brian here...

You did lose something - you lost $112, and likely future business wih this company as they will call whomever did this signing first for assignments in your area.

I agree with Brian that you have to look at the larger picture; what's your rate of no-signs - 1 in 20, 1 in 50? Is it worth turning down a number of good assignments because one MIGHT not sign somewhere down the road? It's your call, but I'd eat an occasional trip fee if it meant
steady business otherwise.

Reply by PAW on 3/17/06 9:45am
Msg #106161

Re: Agree with Brian here...

Why should we absorb the loss, especially after putting in the most work? The big picture is that the title company or the signing service can better absorb the loss than the notary at the end of the food chain.

Using your same logic, if the "don't fund" rate is less than 1% for a notary, then it would be the same for the title company or SS. If the title company or SS doesn't get paid, does that mean that the schedulers, processors, policy writers, etc. don't get paid? Not on your life. It's the cost of doing business. When I worked for a major lender, I hired contractors all the time. They were paid for their services, whether or not we used their finished product or not. They produced, they got paid. I don't see any difference here. We did a job. We provided a finished product. We should be fairly compensated for that product. (Understanding that we did not enter into this contract on a contingency agreement.)

Reply by Jersey_Boy on 3/17/06 9:55am
Msg #106174

Thanks PAW!

Your opinion is very much appreciated.

I feel exactly the same way. If an appraiser does an appraisal on a home, he gets paid wheather (sp) there is a loan signed or not. If there is no loan, the lender is out the appraisal fee.

Bottom line, we do a job, we get paid.

Reply by Roger_OH on 3/17/06 10:39am
Msg #106197

Don't get me wrong guys...

I certainly agree about full fees for rescission or no-funds after we have done the work and it's beyond our control after that. JB's post was that he bailed specifically because of the trip fee for a NO-SIGN at the table, where the work wasn't completed. Bob/Chicago notes here, and Sherry of SLB has made the point in the past, that they don't expect to receive/pay full fee when the signing crashes at the table, and I understand their reasoning.

I can live with an occasional half-fee on a no-sign if it means 49 of the other 50 assignments get completed. Every signing is a gamble to some extent, but I'll take those odds. It just doesn't happen often enough to justify turning down a lot of other work.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/17/06 10:56am
Msg #106208

Re: Don't get me wrong guys...

As I said, up until this year, the odds of me experiencing BOs cancel or refuse to sign were next to nothing. However, I don't know what's up with the loans that are being written in 2006 and all the refusals and cancellations I'm encountering. Are they the same loans as in past years, but people are now reading the fine print? Are the loans suddenly just crappy and people aren't accepting them?

Can someone explain the sudden trend of refusals and cancellations?

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/17/06 12:07pm
Msg #106238

My opinion of this issue...

Here is my little opinion of the cancellation increase.

The television/radio keeps advertising (lowest interest rates in years) yet CW and others are still actively promoting ARM's with high interest rates and tons of points. I can't even tell you how many CW loans I have done lately with 5 points charged to the borrower and still the interest rate is Adj. beginning at 8.5 or above. Then they get the HUD and the appraisal fee is $495 instead of $300-$350... the payoffs are off... the TC fees are double what they got on the Estimated Settlement Statement and for the kind of money they are paying.. they get freaked.

I also think that the LO's have gotten more 'used car salesy'. I can't tell you how many borrowers lately have said... "What? It is supposed to be a fixed not an adjustable?" and when they call the LO... they are told..."It is fixed... it's fixed for 2 years".

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/17/06 12:25pm
Msg #106242

Re: My opinion of this issue...

For each of the two refusals to sign that I've had in the past couple of weeks, the BOs payments were going to be a couple hundred dollars more than they pay now, and the new payment wasn't even inlcuding escrow, also which is now in their current loan payment.

I still can hear the "used car salesman" LO from last week when BO asked him if he would have his own mother sign this loan. BOs refused to sign.

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/17/06 1:07pm
Msg #106276

I'm with Roger here

Sure, it sucks to not get the full fee and in theory I agree that once we've shown up we SHOULD get our full fee no matter what happens.

But in the bigger picture, I'm not going to give up a steady stream of signings simply because I might lose the occasional 30 or 40 bucks on a refusal to sign. If I turn down work, there are 2000 other signing agents in my area who will be more than happy to pick it up in my place. And the reality is, very few of my loans end up being no signs so the risk is pretty minimal.

Principle doesn't pay my rent. When I measure the risk vs. the reward it's really a no brainer. Every business has to eat the occasional loss for one reason for another, this is where it happens for us.

Reply by John_NorCal on 3/17/06 9:56am
Msg #106175

Re: Agree with PAW.

The finished product was tendered. If the borrowers take a loan package to a notary public and pay the appropriate fee then later cancel the loan, do they ask for a refund? I think not! A lilttle simplistic, but the train of thought is the same.

Reply by Jimmy_FL on 3/17/06 10:31am
Msg #106195

I agree 100% with PAW...Thank you................

We did our job, so why should we be punished for something that we can't control????

Reply by MelissaCT on 3/17/06 10:57am
Msg #106209

Re: Agree with Brian here...

I agree, the appraiser gets paid for their work (usually up-front no less) whether the loan funds or not. Why are we different?

Reply by Jersey_Boy on 3/17/06 9:16am
Msg #106147

I look at it this way: I have many clients and I turn down a lot of work because I am already booked. The phone will ring today, and I will work today for a company that will pay me no matter what.

I am not a gambler.... and working with a trip fee contingency... is a gamble.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/17/06 9:17am
Msg #106148

Good for you Jersey Boy and as for MA_SA, I will not accept the fact that sometimes I "just have to eat the cost of a trip if a borrower doesn't sign."

It wasn't that Jersey Boy "was not able" to do the signing, it was that he refused to do the signing for a measley (sp?) trip fee if BOs refused to sign.

Good for you for rarely having borrowers that don't sign. Up until 2006, I had never had a refusal to sign and only one that canceled during the 3-day RTC. However, we are only Mid-March of 2006, and I've had 4-5 refusals to sign at the table and two who have used their 3-day RTC. After printing docs, travel and sitting at the signing table, sometimes more than 2 hours, why should I accept less than a full signing fee?

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/17/06 9:23am
Msg #106150

Re: P.S.

funny, up until this year, I never even asked about cancellation fees or no sign fees, because, I too, never had a need. Maybe my time had come for my first refusal. OK, I can accept that. But, when I had refusal, after refusal, afer refusal all in the same week, my first question now, is not "what are you authorized to pay" but rather "what is your no sign/cancellation pay policy?"

Reply by SueW/Tn on 3/17/06 9:51am
Msg #106171

Kudos to Jersey Boy...

I was impressed with your professionalism, your reply was super and if you don't mind I will be "borrowing" it. Thank you for sharing.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 3/17/06 9:23am
Msg #106149

Just a thought

Everyone needs to run their business as they deem fit,
but you must also consider the need of your customers.
There are some cos that do not pay NSA in full in the
event of a non-fund , usually because they do not get paid in full.
This is true even if the failute to fund is due to the lender's / L/O's fault.
In determining if you want to accept a job
under those circumstances, you must consider the chances of not
being paid in full. The old risk/reward scenario.
If most of the jobs fron the company are primo lenders , you will
find the the vast majority fund and you get paid in full.
If they do a lot of sub-prime stuff, and the bwr
learns the loan terms when you
show up, then there will be a lot of fall out.
By blindly turning down all jobs that will not pay in full if a non-fund
you might be passing up a lot of good work.
Remember ,You have a 100% chance of not being paid for a
job that you decline because you think that there is a chance that
you will not get paid
Goof luck

Reply by cyndi_ca on 3/17/06 9:25am
Msg #106152

Re: Just a thought

Very well stated Bob and I could not agree more. Everyone has to run their business their way, for myself I would rather take that chance than miss the opportunity for more work, esp if they turn out to be a great co.

Reply by Anonymous on 3/17/06 9:33am
Msg #106159

Re: Just a thought

Also depends how desperate you are for money, but some lenders just hope for the notary
to sell their loan. When you get there they dont know nothing of the their loan terms.

Oh I thought I was getting a fixed rate,
They told me my payment was going to be 1500 not 1950
I said with no prepayment, and this one has one.

12,000 dollars in points to reduce my rate and still 7.725%
Are you getting 250.00 dollars to do this signing?


My question if we can call the borrower and ask the numbers or ask them if they are informed
about their loan terms just before making the trip.

But some SS are just ridiculous with a 20.00 trip fee.

I will take half of the agreed fee, if no sign, but full fee if they cancel.

The SS just forwarded you the docs, we did all the leg work.

Reply by LawrenceOK on 3/17/06 9:32am
Msg #106158

The only time I will accept a trip fee is when the borrower(s) are a no show. It is not OUR fault that a borrower refuses to sign or uses his rtc. Once my foot gets past the threshold, I've done my job. Full fee due.

I once sat in a borrowers driveway for 30 minutes waiting for them to show up. Tried calling the brw's cell and home number several times with no answer. Called SS and told them I would wait another 30 minutes then I was outa there. Bwr's never showed or called back, charged the SS $50+.50 cent a mile at 30 miles rt and got it. I also did the resign at full fee.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 3/17/06 10:26am
Msg #106188

The fringe benefit of working in an Attorney only state...

I usually have no problems getting paid. If I leave my home or office (whichever I'm working in) I get paid regardless of the borrowers actions. The only thing that stinks is that I have to stay at the table for as long as the borrower deems fit. When I go out, I'm representing the attorney, therefore I'm obligated to make the client happy.

I wish my attorney paid me for my time 'on the field'. It would be nice to get paid for the SA service, as well as for my time representing the law office. However the attorney and I have an agreement. If I work as an SA, reprsenting the law office, then I get to keep every dime earned for the signing. The attorney will not pay me because it is not 'billable hours' from a "normal" client. By my accepting the SA assignments, then I get to freely market the law office. And marketing brings back what? Future clients.

Call me greedy... but I can dream can't I?

Reply by cmd_NH on 3/17/06 10:54am
Msg #106206

Re: Jersey Boy...Good for you! You handled that

situation very well. I applaud your professionalism.

Reply by LilyMD on 3/17/06 11:03am
Msg #106210

Re: PAW has changed my mind.

As I posted earlier this morning, I don't take the trip fee agreement. Well, I didn't until Paul made a good point. Everyone is losing out.

Reply by LilyMD on 3/17/06 11:05am
Msg #106211

Re: PAW has changed my mind. Further, that doesn't mean

I think I'm only doing a $50 job if the loan cancels, I still feel I deserve the full fee because I did the full job. But, let's say for companies I deal with on a regular basis, this opens my eyes a bit to their side of the coin. I was only thinking of my side of the story.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/17/06 11:27am
Msg #106219

Re: PAW has changed my mind. Further, that doesn't mean

I have one TC that paid me full fee when the BO canceled BEFORE the scheduled appointment. I hadn't even stepped out my front door. I simply returned the docs and didn't even invoice them because the docs were overnight and all I had in it were a few phone calls with BO and TC. Two weeks later I couldn't believe it when I received a check for the full amount. I had never even dealt with them before. They didn't even have a W-9 on file for me. Now when they call, I'll gladly bust my butt for them and accept every signing they can give me.

If this TC pays 100% signing fee and you don't even leave your house, why do others penny pinch around with only trip fees when you've fulfilled your part of the deal?

Reply by LilyMD on 3/17/06 11:34am
Msg #106222

Re: PAW has changed my mind. Further, that doesn't mean

I've never gotten a full fee and stayed home to boot!

That said, it doesn't mean I am will to just accept no or low trip fee. Paul's post opened eyes to the other side of the story. Let's just say, I might be more compassionate about it. I do mean this in relationship to my regular companies. I will not accept those confirmations that just printed on the page to practice CYA. My question to these companies is "are you experiencing a lot of cancellations?"

Reply by Cris_AR on 3/17/06 11:10am
Msg #106214

I only have one SS that I will accept a cancellation fee for, they never give me problems and from start to finish the signing is smooth. Always call in advance, Docs ready hours prior to my leaving.