Posted by Janlee_MI on 3/21/06 3:19pm
Msg #107468

Notarizing a document dated in the future. Answered by USNA

Recently we discussed this issue. This is in the USNA monthly newsletter.

Can I notarize a document dated in the furute?

No, not in any case. USNA says. "You cannot notarize a document whose stated date is after the current date. Problems may arise between the date you notarized it and the stated date of the document. How do you explain to a court of law, for example, that you notarized a document before the date of its creation?

Some Notaries argue that the document actually exists if you are holding it in your hands, no matter what date is on it. While true in theory, you must consider how your actions will be interpeted if the document is ever called in to question. Err on the side of caution in the case of post-date documents and refuse to notarize.

Some banks and mortgage companies routinely date their loan docuements with a future date, the date the lender expects to give the funds to the borrower after the documents have been signed and notarized. Unfortunalley, some notary signing agents routinely notarize these post-dated loan documents, event thought the customer statements and the notary statements use the date teh customer appeared before the notary, the current date. The bottom line is acknowledgement and affidavits dated before the loan documents themselves are dated are unacceptable. (USNA Newsletter).

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 3/21/06 3:59pm
Msg #107500

Re: I know this is not a popular answer, but it's our stance n/m

Reply by Janlee_MI on 3/21/06 4:06pm
Msg #107502

I agree with this statement totally. n/m

Reply by PAW on 3/21/06 5:52pm
Msg #107533

And most people know my stance on this subject as well.

Document dates are immaterial to a Notary Public. The only date a notary needs to be concerned with is the date of their notarization.

That aside, whether or not the borrower wishes to sign a future or past dated document is their decision and theirs alone.

I am not going to go into any further discussion on this topic as there are those who will agree and those who disagree. I agree to disagree.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/21/06 7:00pm
Msg #107545

Re: And most people know my stance on this subject as well.

Well if I have to choose between the USNA and my state notarial laws then I just don't know what I'll do. NOT. The laws set forth by my state are the laws I will follow.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/21/06 9:10pm
Msg #107565

No one sent otaries to POST school nor pinned a badge

on their chests. The only date that counts for notaries is the date on and of the notarization. The document date is irrelevant. The notary has only responsibility to show the date the document was signed in front of the notary. My opinion: worth all the money you paid for it.

Reply by sue_pa on 3/22/06 6:10am
Msg #107626

question

Why have you determined this? Is it a legal opinion coming from an attorney, a directive from various SOS offices, or is it an interpretation from PAN/USMNA? The reason I am asking is that this is a complete about face from what Marc taught a very few years ago - we could cover the entire document with a piece of paper except for the signature line & notary block as NOTHING contained in that document is our business. Same w/blank spaces in docs - now you guys say don't notarize but that wasn't what you previously taught. I really would like to know what are your recommendations based upon.

Reply by MelissaCT on 3/22/06 9:05am
Msg #107688

Blank spaces

If I notice blank spaces, I'll ask the borrower if they still want to sign with blank spaces. It's up to them on how to complete the document, not us as notaries. If material, I'll even note in my journal that bwr left blank spaces in document. I notarize. At that point, the bwr is stating that what is contained is true (if a jurat) or that they acknowledge signing of their own free will/deed (ack). Not my concern as to what is actually contained in the document wording. Is that wrong?

Reply by PAW on 3/22/06 10:39am
Msg #107714

Re: Blank spaces

If a space on the document is not to be filled in, I always ask the signer to put something there, like N/A or a long dash, so the blank cannot be later filled in. Then it is an indication that nothing is applicable in that blank. Our statutes (FSA 117.107(10)) says that we cannot notarize the signature on a document that is incomplete or blank. Blank spaces within a document is considered to be incomplete. (There is one exception noted in our manual, an endorsement or assignment in blank of a negotiable or nonnegotiable note and the assignment in blank of any instrument given as security for such note is not deemed incomplete.)

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 3/22/06 11:16am
Msg #107727

Re: Things change. . .

. . .Secretaries of State change, their counsels change, their rulings change. You'll notice our current Practical Guide for Pennsylvania is very, very different in many topics from even 2-3 editions ago. We have 5-6 topics in the hopper with the Pennsylvania Secretary's office right now, waiting on answers.

The law doesn't say anything about the date of the document: what it should be, what to do if it isn't. It depends on what the Secretary's office tells you to do. USNA - and PAN - passes that on. Sometimes the Secretary's office doesn't want to hand off a decision, so we make one that is of the most benefit for our customers - not financially beneficial, perhaps, but we try to come down on the side of retaining a commission vs. risking it.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 3/22/06 11:24am
Msg #107731

Re: P.S. Sue. . .

. . .have you been to a seminar recently? Are they still training the "nothing on the document is relevant" way you mentioned?

Reply by Jon on 3/21/06 10:47pm
Msg #107577

Re: Notarizing a document dated in the future. Answered by U

For the state of CA, the USNA is 100% wrong. The CA SOS has determined that the date on the document is considered part of the document content. In CA, the notary is NOT responsible for the document content.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/21/06 11:50pm
Msg #107607

Document dates are a non-issue for a CA Notary

***The CA SOS has determined that the date on the document is considered part of the document content. In CA, the notary is NOT responsible for the document content.***

I'll take your word for that, but can't quote rhyme and verse.. I also agree that the date of the documents are irrelevant, and have come out strongly about it.

Still, I sort of like it that Marlene sticks by her organization. Loyalty is nice, and so is Marlene.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 3/22/06 11:22am
Msg #107730

Re: Gawwsh. . .

how nice of you to say that.

Please don't think it's all wine and roses at USNA or PAN. We have as many fierce arguments among the researchers as you see on the boards, but we have managed to refrain from calling each other stupid or idiots, because we know better. Childish, sure, bull-headed, absolutely - but we have some chops.

Marlene, sliding back into pro mode
[e-mail address]

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 3/22/06 11:18am
Msg #107729

Re: Notarizing a document dated in the future. Answered by U

Just as I was saying in my "Things change" answer above. The SOS has the say about dates on documents in California.