Posted by Giselle_CA on 3/29/06 1:58pm
Msg #109440
Update: Message 107225
I've finally received a response from the CA-SOS regarding this issue. Here is the response for all who asked:
The Question:
"I have received a request from a Realtor to notarize loan documents for a borrower with illegal immigrant status. This documents does affect real property in California and this particular borrower does not possess any type of identification. The Realtor mentioned two Credible Witnesses could be provided. Could you please guide me as to how should I handle such request?"
The Response:
"In response to your inquiry, as it is not the responsibility of a notary public to determine legalities, two credible witnesses may be used. However, if the person has a driver's license from another country that is current or issued within the last five years, that identification may be used."
Colleen R. Petersen
for the Notary Public &
Special Filings Section
Business Programs Division
Office of the Secretary of State
(916) 653-7114
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Reply by ColleenCA on 3/29/06 2:03pm
Msg #109447
Wow! I cant believe that is the response. To aid an illegal immigrant obtaining a loan by notarizing the paperwork is way beyond my ethics! I would have to refuse a signing like this.
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Reply by Erin C. Wall Signature Services on 3/29/06 2:11pm
Msg #109449
Hasn't the loan already been obtained? The lender had no problem with it....State of CA says two cred wit is ok? So what am I missing? Is the illegal immigrant to pay property taxes? Do I have to be a citizen of Costa Rica to purchase a cabana? Isn't it the lender's risk if the borrower cannot provide ID? Interesting........is it criminal if the loan company has approved it? Is it a predatory lender with a LO who has no clue and the whole thing will go South (so to speak) anyway? Tell us more.......
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Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/29/06 2:23pm
Msg #109452
I absolutely agree with you Colleen. I would be in serious legal trouble and possibly jail if I aided in stealing, forgery, lying under oath, etc. To be a notary public we must hold ourselves to honesty, and integrity (not to mention other ethics), and we are to abide by the law. Aiding someone that is breaking the law is wrong regardless of what law they are breaking. It is unethical.
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Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/29/06 2:37pm
Msg #109457
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
I own property in Puerto Vallarta, Guadalajara and Tiajuana. I am not a citizen of Mexico. How do you know that the alien is illegal? Being an alien should be no barrier to buying property in the US and is in fact not. The Japanese have bought and sold half of LA. The only way that an illegal can be ajudicated illegal is by a court fo law. They may be a suspected illegal, or allegedly illegal but they are not illegal until they are convicted. This person is going to pay taxes just like every other homeowner. You may be interested in knowing that there is a way for an illegal to become legal by simply making an investment of a certain value in this country: yes you can buy a citizenship in the US as well as in Mexico and even in Switzerland.
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Reply by ColleenCA on 3/29/06 2:43pm
Msg #109458
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
The original message indicated that the notary was TOLD that the loan was for an illegal alian by the real estate agent. I just would not want to associate myself with a known illegal activity of any kind. The last time I checked, it was illegal to be in this country without going through the proper avenues for obtaining legal citizenship. I would not want to be a party to notarizing the loan for this person. That's just the way I conduct my business.
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Reply by Giselle_CA on 3/29/06 2:55pm
Msg #109459
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
"How do you know that the alien is illegal?"
1. As Collen stated the Realtor mentioned it.
2. The borrower did not possess any documentation stating/proving legal authorization to reside in the country. Actually, he did not possess any type of documents.
If the borrower did have proper documentation, we will not be having this discussion.
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Reply by Erin C. Wall Signature Services on 3/29/06 3:07pm
Msg #109460
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
How did he get a loan????
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Reply by Giselle_CA on 3/29/06 3:12pm
Msg #109462
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
This...I don't know. The Realtor mentioned CA banks are now making loans to illegal immigrants.
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Reply by Jenny_CA on 3/29/06 3:28pm
Msg #109467
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
As I mentioned in that thread I am not the INS, I will notarize according to CA law.
Now, if there are specific instructions that state that a Resident Alien Card, Passport or such needs to be provided for their (lender) loans and they have a CA valid Id I will use the ID for my journal ( jot notes down)and I will inform the lender that the required cards were not presented.
A recent case comes to mind, the lender chose not to go through with the loan and I did receive my payment for I followed proper procedure. I was told it was a "lender mistake" that should have been resolved before I even showed up. (I now someone at one point gave them a loan if not they would not have the house they do.)
A while back CA IDs were being issued to illegal immigrants, and many illegal residents do have them.
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Reply by Giselle_CA on 3/29/06 3:44pm
Msg #109473
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
"A while back CA IDs were being issued to illegal immigrants, and many illegal residents do have them."
Yes, and I think the CA Governor vetoed it. Many driver license has either expired or are expiring soon.
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Reply by Jenny_CA on 3/29/06 4:19pm
Msg #109486
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
"Yes, and I think the CA Governor vetoed it. Many driver license has either expired or are expiring soon"
They were not revoked, and unitl expired are still good for notariztion purposes.
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Reply by Giselle_CA on 3/29/06 4:24pm
Msg #109489
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
I don't know what your point is...no one is arguing notarizing or not when presented with proper identification.
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Reply by lulu on 3/30/06 1:37pm
Msg #109805
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
Last time you checked.......................not going through proper channels to become a legal citizen.
You don't even have to be or become a citizen to 'legally' live and work in the United States.
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Reply by lulu on 3/30/06 1:38pm
Msg #109806
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
Guess what, you don't even have to be a US citizen to be eligible to be a US notary public.
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Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/29/06 3:17pm
Msg #109463
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
Well Charles we can't agree on everything unfortunately. If the property is not an investment property or vacation home, but to be thier primary residence there's an Occupany Affidavit in the package. Many times I have had to do a jurat for this document. To me placing one under oath and performing a jurat on someone whom I know has entered our country illegally and is trying to illegally live here would be a huge conflict. Would I give a pair of gloves to someone who told me they lost thier last pair during thier last robbery and need another pair so they can go break in somewhere else? No.
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Reply by ColleenCA on 3/29/06 3:25pm
Msg #109466
Re: Right Again SarahBeth!! You Go Girl!!! n/m
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Reply by SueW/Tn on 3/29/06 3:32pm
Msg #109468
I think I would follow what the SOS says because...
IF the realtor just has a bad attitude, IF this person is here legally (50-50 chance), IF you refuse him and all the ducks are NOT in the correct row...well it could definitely become a problem. I have in-laws that are Canadian, they own property here and split their time during the winter months, it's the American way. I completely agree with Charles here, you're putting alot of weight on what someone is repeating to you. IF you can't identify him, that's a horse of a different color but you're not going to know that until you get to the signing.
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Reply by FastCA on 3/29/06 5:38pm
Msg #109509
Re: I think I would follow what the SOS says because...
Hellooooooooo SueW! It's about proper I.D. Did your in-Laws have Canadian I.D.??? Then they can buy what ever they want in the case being discussed, there is no valid I.D.
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Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/29/06 9:06pm
Msg #109573
By California law if they have credible witnesses they have
proper ID
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Reply by SueW/Tn on 3/30/06 6:42am
Msg #109633
Fast...perhaps you can slow that mouth of yours down and
actually read the post I replied to. Take a piece of advice, practice practice practice your reading skills.
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Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/29/06 3:35pm
Msg #109469
Re: Right Again SarahBeth!! You Go Girl!!!
You know these loans are relatively new. Even if the package didn't contain a jurat on the Occupancy Affidavit I wouldn't want to do it. Illegal immigration is a real hot topic right now. I would not want to be brought in to court when this does get challenged.
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Reply by Erin C. Wall Signature Services on 3/29/06 3:55pm
Msg #109474
Re: Right Again SarahBeth!! You Go Girl!!!
The Response:
"In response to your inquiry, as it is not the responsibility of a notary public to determine legalities, two credible witnesses may be used. However, if the person has a driver's license from another country that is current or issued within the last five years, that identification may be used."
Not The Responsibility of the Notary to Determine Legalities
I am not an attorney and I do not practice law.
This "illegal" scored a loan somehow. In the thousands no doubt. CA notary expert said "two credible witnesses may be used" .....ID had to be established somewhere here or how did he get the loan??
Remember the old joke:
Punch line: "It's a knick-knack Paddywhack, give the frog a loan."
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Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/29/06 5:30pm
Msg #109506
Re: Right Again SarahBeth!! You Go Girl!!!
If I couldn't read I wouldn't be a signing agent. I read the response. It's not about determining legalities. The issue is knowingly assisting someone who is in the act of breaking the law. If she wasn't told the person was illegally here there would be no issue. We can't be held for things we do not know. But in this case she does know.
Erin don't think I have forgotten your ignorant use of "retards" in post 108245. I responded with post 108323. Later in the day you came back to the thread and responded to another post in it. I have a hard time believing that you did not read the entire thread when you went back. If I start a thread you better believe I'm going to read the whole thing. Now if you go back to it you might understand why I am totally offended by you. Oh and I'm not the only one here with a child who is disabled so don't think I'm the only one offended by your extremely poor choice of words. It would be a cold day in hell before I would let that go unanswered.
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Reply by Charm_AL on 3/29/06 5:37pm
Msg #109508
Re: Right Again SarahBeth!! You Go Girl!!!
Sarah...you're missing the point....it IS legal to fund and give a loan or assets to an illegal alien. Granted, we have as a government institutionalized illegality, nonetheless it is legal, having knowledge that you are signing an alien does not make what you are doing wrong.
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Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/29/06 5:58pm
Msg #109518
Re: Right Again SarahBeth!! You Go Girl!!!
I didn't miss the point. I just disagree with it. It is ethically wrong to knowingly assist someone in wrong doing. I know there's a difference between "legal" and "ethical conflict". The other day I was trying to look up the oath we take to receive our commission and was having a complete brain fart trying to find it. Anyone have it handy? Either way it is a good debate.
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Reply by Charm_AL on 3/29/06 5:59pm
Msg #109519
Re: Right Again SarahBeth!! You Go Girl!!!
Sarah what is ethically wrong with something that the gov and banks say is ok?
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Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/29/06 6:01pm
Msg #109520
Re: Right Again SarahBeth!! You Go Girl!!!
Assisting them in thier wrongdoing of illegally residing in the US.
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Reply by Charm_AL on 3/29/06 6:15pm
Msg #109525
Re: Right Again SarahBeth!! You Go Girl!!!
OK...since I am failing to make my point, lets take your tack....show me either their "wrongdoing" or where it is considered "illegal" to fund and have a residence in the USA. Did you not read Winston's articles? I definitely do not agree with it, but then again, my disagreeing with taxes does not make "not paying" them legal. I have to go by the laws governing these 50 United States no matter whether I agree or not! ( with the exception of relocating to another country ), of which I believe there are none better. The exodus to Canada was due to ethical beliefs during the draft. Would it be correct if I was so opinionated against people originating from the Pacific rim that I declined doing signings for this group? That is the same thing! I may not like the laws, but by God, I'll stand by them!
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Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/29/06 6:42pm
Msg #109540
Re: Right Again SarahBeth!! You Go Girl!!!
You made your point. Your point is legality mine is ethical. Then there's the point I had made about Occupancy Affidavits. Maybe that question should be posed to the SOS.
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Reply by Stephanie_CA on 3/29/06 5:57pm
Msg #109516
Let's say I went to Tuscany and wanted to buy a Villa......
I am not a legal citizen of the country, but wanted to travel there frequently.
I don't see anything wrong or illegal with this senario....let's say, I left my identification cards with my boyfriend who took a day trip to Monaco, I had friends with me - they know I am not a resident of the country, but they vouch under oath as to who I am.
Is this an illegal act?
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Reply by Les_CO on 3/29/06 9:06pm
Msg #109574
Re: Let's say I went to Tuscany and wanted to buy a Villa......
Only if you gave your boyfriend you credit cards along with your ID. (Unless he won at the tables, and came back)
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Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/29/06 9:12pm
Msg #109575
Stephanie, you are exactly right, by the way if you are
interested I have a gorgeous Villa 30 miles North of Florence for sale complete with 100 acres of fields, forest and vinyards. E-mail me and I'll send you the brochure for it. I also have a palace in Pisa available!
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Reply by lulu on 3/30/06 1:47pm
Msg #109810
Re: Right Again SarahBeth!! You Go Girl!!!
I know someone who is being sued for child support by a woman who is in the US illegally. When this person went to the child support department that was after him for support he told them the girl is here illegally. The child support department said that was an issue for another department, not them. They weren't concerned. I'm not saying that is right and that it does not infuriate me in that case or this one in regards to someone being here illegally but it is to show that I believe you are making more out of your role in this than is necessary. It is not your role to judge this person. It is your role to determine if he is who he says he is and notarize the document. You administer an oath of truthfulness to the items in the document that the borrower signed to. If it is later found that they signed that yes this will be their primary residence then that will be proof of their intent to stay here illegally and the proper authorities will deal with it accordingly.
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Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/29/06 9:04pm
Msg #109571
I'm sure that we don't agree on everything but please tell
me where in the original post was there a statement that
1. The property was owner-occupied
2. That there was a statement to be sworn as to the legality or the individual
3. Unless the RE agent has positive proof that the borrower was illegal he was violating his fiduciary to his client by reavealing this and that is a tort!
If the borrower was willing to swear that he was going to reside in the property why would that by itself prove that the borrower was illegal? I understand that everyone of us has to live by our own mores but I believe that many people are willing to accept the biases of others. I don't see why someone would not buy a property that they use exclusively and not for investment.
Let me tell you a couple of true stories from my past. I met an engineer from Columbia. His family owns the franchises for Columbia for the importation of most of the worlds large farm equipment. They are wealthy and have a gorgeous home in Cartagena. This family has a number of children and they were mostly of college age and so the family bought houses for their children in the various US cities that they went to college in. I happened to sell them a home in the San Diego area that was a commercial building of 10,000 sq feet which they converted into a gorgeous mansion overlooking the water in La Jolla. They also owned homes in Basel, Switzerland and in Washing to DC (Georgetown U) The also had a secondary reason to have homes in other areas. Since Columbia was at that time (and every other) politically unstable they wanted to have homes to escape to should something happen. Every home had several bank accounts attached to it.
On the other hand I have a friend who loves the City of Merida in the Yucatan in Mexico. This friend of mine purchased a home there to use to visit Merida when he was there and not for investment. I spent a month there a couple of years ago and it was great, nice colonial, with period furniture overlooking the center of town, maid and chauffeur included, he would never let someone rent it.
I don't believe that we are to be judge and jury. I believe that we are to be objective in the performance of our duties as notaries. Being objective means that you do not listen to hearsay evidence and only work with facts. If the affiant is willing to swear under oath that certain facts are true it is not up to us to call them liars. There are laws and authorities who are charged with the responsibility of bringing perjurers to justice. That is not in the notary job description!
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Reply by John_NorCal on 3/29/06 4:02pm
Msg #109482
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
I agree with Charles on a few points. As the SOS office said it is not our duty as notaries to ascertain the legalities of someones residency. How do we know that the Realtor doesn't harbor bias against foreigners? As a notary, was Giselle being asked to ascertain the borrowers status? No of course not. Exactly what illegal act is being aided and abetted here" The fact this borrower is in this country, legally or not will continue long after the loan is closed. A loan signing has no bearing on whether that person will stay here or not. Remember, we as notaries are neutral. We do not testify to the truthfulness of an act. We acknowledge personal signatures and we execute jurats. The truthfullness of the person being placed under oath, is in their hands, not ours.
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Reply by Giselle_CA on 3/29/06 5:12pm
Msg #109503
Re: Update: Message 107225 - Tempest in a teapot!
John, I agree with you. Per the SOS office, we have our response when this scenerio arises. I questioned this issue in order to protect myself and to learn what the SOS would have to say about it.
If the Realtor is bias or not, or why the need to disclose the illegal status of the individual, we will never know.
It was for this very reason that made me question the integrity/honesty of the individual (It could have been anything involving braking the law). In other words, If I know this person is braking the law why is it unreasonable to believe he/she might also be lying about their own identity?
Per our CA hanbook: "satisfactory evidence" means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person making the acknowledgement is not the individual he or she claims to be..." plus the two CW.
"As a notary, was Giselle being asked to ascertain the borrowers status?"
No, I was not. However, there are certain forms in which may or may not have to fill the id's presented (in this case could not have). But, this is the Lender's responsibility, not mine.
Thanks for your response!
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Reply by Mung/CA on 3/29/06 4:10pm
Msg #109485
Hey Charles, how about renting me the Guadalajara
place when I go visit? I was born there way back in 1969 and haven't been back since my family emmigrated here in 1972. I still have some family there and am seriously thinking about going back to visit.
What say you?
As far as the whole SOS response, well..............that is after all the horse's mouth. To decline a service would be more criminal than not.
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Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/29/06 9:23pm
Msg #109576
Hey Mung: I'd love to rent it out to you but I have
a lease on it to the Conservatory of Music in Guadalajara which by the way includes a place for me to stay while I'm there. I didn't add it because I didn't think that anyone would know where the place is but I do have several properties in Ameca, Jal and I would be able to make sure you had a place to stay, its only about 20 miles West of Guadalajara if you'd like. I also have two beautiful contiguous walled-in lots which I would be willing to part with or preferably exchange in Rincon de Guayabitos just north of Puerta Vallarta on the ocean. If you know of anyone who might like them I'll make sure that you get a finders fee! I'd love to exchange then for a building in town behind the Cathedral with a nice rooftop patio!
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Reply by Mary_in_VA on 3/29/06 3:55pm
Msg #109475
WHY would someone tell you...
Why would anyone (borrower, loan officer, title company, SS) have told you they are here illegally? If all you knew was that they had no I.D. but two credible witnesses, would you have done the signing? Of course, because that is allowable under your state's law.
The immigrant status may be a concern of the lender's (especially if this is a loan on a "primary residence" , but certainly not yours. And citizens of other countries can own property here! (Just as we can own property in other countries!) So, this person may be "illegal" or a "criminal", but I wonder how many other "criminals" you and I have notarized loans for (albeit, unbeknownst to us that they were criminals or what there crimes were - mayby possession...!)
In short, in my opinion, HAPPY NOTARIZING and you have your SoS's written statement to back you up!
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Reply by Erin C. Wall Signature Services on 3/29/06 3:57pm
Msg #109476
Re: WHY would someone tell you...
(politicians)
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Reply by Erin C. Wall Signature Services on 3/29/06 3:58pm
Msg #109477
Re: WHY would someone tell you...
I'd like to know who the lender is, I can refer some folks to them and maybe receive a finder's fee? Lots of resident aliens here.
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Reply by ColleenCA on 3/29/06 4:04pm
Msg #109483
Re: WHY would someone tell you...Mary..
The point was that the realtor told the notary that the person signing was an illegal alian. My point is that I would never notarize a document KNOWING this information. I don't believe in it and I wouldn't do it. Now, of course we have no way of knowing the criminal background on anyone we are signing if we are not told first. The fact that she was told is the deciding factor. If I was told that I was going to sign someone who was a convicted rapist I wouldn't go on that signing either for my own safety. Apparently the SOS said that legally it is ok to do it as long as the credible witnesses are in place. My ethics would prevent me from doing it.
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Reply by SueW/Tn on 3/29/06 4:19pm
Msg #109487
I think we all have ethics, that's not the point here...
The point IS he says/she says with, at this point, no verification. Far as I'm concerned you've got a case of "gossip". I agree with John completely, there's far too much bias going on here for my comfort zone. If you're uncomfortable than follow your instincts, someone else will close the loan LEGALLY per your own SOS.
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Reply by Mung/CA on 3/29/06 4:24pm
Msg #109490
SueW/Tn - Couldn't have said it better myself. n/m
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Reply by ColleenCA on 3/29/06 4:27pm
Msg #109491
Re: I think we all have ethics, that's not the point here...
That's exactly my point. As I said it boils down to what we are willing to do in our own business and the choices we make. Given the circumstances that would be my choice. There is no bias involved in the decision. We can only go by what the initial post stated and that was that the notary was given this information by the realtor. No gossip, just going by what was originally posted.
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Reply by SueW/Tn on 3/29/06 4:31pm
Msg #109493
Well Colleen, I would sign ET if
he had a valid picture ID and his signature matched. That's what my job is, ID, Verify, Witness and Sign. Not my job to decide who deserves a loan, that's why the LO's get the big bucks.
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Reply by ColleenCA on 3/29/06 4:35pm
Msg #109494
Re: Well Sue
Then I guess we agree to disagree.
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Reply by Mung/CA on 3/29/06 4:40pm
Msg #109496
Ladies, please. Here comes a recliner and popcorn soon n/m
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Reply by Winston_Tn on 3/29/06 4:47pm
Msg #109497
Re: Well Sue
Colleen... We all have the luxury to decline an assignment, the point however is that it is perfectly legal to grant a loan to an Illegal. The banks have already rated the risk. To refuse on the principals being discussed in this thread seems to lend itself to prejudice and being remiss in ones duty as a notary. Please refer to articles posted below.
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Reply by ColleenCA on 3/29/06 5:00pm
Msg #109499
Re: Well Sue
Winston: It has nothing to do with prejudice. I have a problem with the possible legal ramifications pertaining to the illegal residency. I don't believe that declining an assignment with the knowledge provided would make me remiss in my notarial duties. I did refer to the articles that you posted and found them very interesting. Thank you for posting them.
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Reply by John_NorCal on 3/29/06 5:14pm
Msg #109504
Re: Well Colleen
You say, "I have a problem with the possible legal ramifications pertaining to the illegal residency. " I ask what legal ramifications are there to you as a notary? Assuming this were you, would you be attesting to the fact that this person was here with legal status? With all due respect Colleen, I think you have gotten caught up with the whole illegal immigration problem. I too am for legal immigration, I am not for criminalizing illegal immigrants however. For any one to make a comparison to rapists, thieves or whatever as justification for their refusal to not perform a legal service, smacks too much of prejudice.
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Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/29/06 5:42pm
Msg #109510
Re: Well Colleen
John I totally respect your opinion as you have showed yourself as a highly knowledgable professional. In a different forum I could totally debate you on your premise of not comparing thieves to illegal immigrants. You would find that I do have some very valid unprejudiced views. But this is about assisting one in obtaining illegal perminant residence. The ramifications are that I don't want to have to explain that I knew they were doing something illegal and I assisted them.
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Reply by Charm_AL on 3/29/06 5:52pm
Msg #109514
Re: Well Colleen
You guys keep arguing about signing illegal aliens, it a moot point!....Pres Bush face made it legal for an ILLEGAL alien to obtain the American dream of homeownership. The funding banks have determined that they have LESS default on these loans than legal citizens of the U.S.
The illegal alien (immigrant worker) although crashing our border, extending his stay past his Visa, being here ILLEGALLY, having an EIN (because he can't get an SS#), can legally assume a mortgage and pay taxes.
The fact that he's here illegally, does NOT make his ownership or mortgage paper illegal.
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Reply by FastCA on 3/29/06 5:57pm
Msg #109515
Re: Well Colleen
Dear John,
"I too am for legal immigration, I am not for criminalizing illegal immigrants however. For any one to make a comparison to rapists, thieves or whatever as justification for their refusal to not perform a legal service, smacks too much of prejudice"
Quick question: What part of "illegal" confuses you? If they are illegal, then they are already criminals in my book.
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Reply by John_NorCal on 3/29/06 6:36pm
Msg #109536
Re: FastCA
>>Quick question: What part of "illegal" confuses you? If they are illegal, then they are already criminals in my book.<<
Too bad, strike that, it's a good thing your book is not the law of the land.
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Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/29/06 9:32pm
Msg #109583
Re: FastCA - Tell me FastCA when you don't wear a seat
belt you are performing an illegal act, does that put you in the same class a rapists and thieves? When are we going to make jaywalking a capital crime?
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Reply by ColleenCA on 3/29/06 6:20pm
Msg #109528
Re: Well John
NO WHERE DID I COMPARE AN ILLEGAL ALIAN TO A RAPIEST OR A THIEF! I only pointed out that I would not go into a convicted rapiest home if I was told of that fact in advance. I believe you are twisting my words. My issue and only issue is with the illegal status of the signer. If the bank's are willing to lend then so be it. The fact remains that the person is in this country illegally and if I know of this in advance then I would have to decline the signing. I am not prejudice. I am only going on the laws of our country. I am repeating myself in practically response. I am done with this issue.
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Reply by Anonymous on 5/28/06 4:04am
Msg #122825
Re: Well John
Don't worry about someone calling you prejudice, that's how they try to have their way with you. Notice, at least two responding here are Hispanics......yes I said it...don't let them try to make you feel guilty.
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Reply by Mung/CA on 3/29/06 4:39pm
Msg #109495
doesn't the handbook state that you MUST provide
notorial services to anybody that makes a proper request? I don't have my handbook handy but I'm pretty sure that it does............anyone?
ps. I'm not talking about accomodation signings
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Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/29/06 9:26pm
Msg #109579
Isn't the point that we can not refuse a legal notarization? n/m
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Reply by SoCal_Money on 3/29/06 4:23pm
Msg #109488
Re: WHY would someone tell you...Mary..
Why would you base your decision on information someone told you that may or may not be accurate? Even so, he may be here "illegally" but "legally" he is able to purchase a home. Obviously he has proven that he is gainfully employed and has a bank account somewhere and the ability to pay. Will he pay?? who knows. Do we care?? We do signings everyday and don't question the criminal background of these people. We have loan officers lie to borrowers and to us all the time. Ethically, I think lying is wrong but I am not going to turn down a signing based on the BO or LO making a statement about the other party.
Again, you don't have to be a citizen of a country to purchase property. There are illegal aliens here in So Cal that were able to get identification and open accounts using their matricular cards. As long as I could "legally" id them I would perform the service.
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Reply by Winston_Tn on 3/29/06 4:00pm
Msg #109479
Although disconcerting, this is not new. For those into 'macro' economics, this is yet another example of "The invisible Hand of Adam Smith" which essentially states that man will always be driven by greed.... A few articles on how this is accomplished;
http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/michellemalkin/2003/08/29/168287.html
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/08/news/economy/illegal_immigrants/
http://www.searchlightcrusade.net/posts/1141359209.shtml
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/issues/home_loans.html
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Reply by Charm_AL on 3/29/06 5:31pm
Msg #109507
my 2 cents...
In the eyes of our gov at this point, it is legal. Therefore, there are no legal ramifications, the only legal ramification would be to show a history of prejudice by continually declining a legal signing. Thanks for clarifying Winston, since the gov currently considers this legal, the only only thing left is prejudice. This thread, in my opinion was a waste of space, arguing about 'gossip' versus facts.
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Reply by MistarellaFL on 3/29/06 6:17pm
Msg #109526
Thank you Charm for being the voice of reason
We are notaries, not judges. Doing what is legal as a notary.
We aren't here to interpret the law. Let the government decide who can get a loan!
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Reply by John_NorCal on 3/29/06 6:39pm
Msg #109539
Re: Thank you Charm for being the voice of reason
>>We are notaries, not judges. Doing what is legal as a notary.
We aren't here to interpret the law. Let the government decide who can get a loan!<<<
I couldn't agree more! Until they change the law, I will abide by what is dictated by legal publication.
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Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/29/06 6:13pm
Msg #109524
Great resources Winston.
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Reply by Regal1 on 3/29/06 6:31pm
Msg #109533
It is LEGAL to purchase property & NOT be a citizen. n/m
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Reply by lulu on 3/30/06 1:34pm
Msg #109804
How do you know he is an illegal alien?
Just because he can't show you a US drivers license or some other US issue ID?
He could be here on a visitor visa and buying a property here.
Whether he is here legally or not is not part of your obligation as a notary public to determine or discriminate against. As long as you follow legal notary guidelines for Identification you are not doing anything criminal. You are not, like, aiding and abedding a criminal.
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