Posted by Jack Daniels Mobile Notary Service on 5/27/06 8:46am
Msg #122669
FISHY???
Docs all say Dar"LINE" A. SMITH
ID says Dar"LENE" Brown Smith.
Borrower can't provide any ID that says how the docs read. I just can't believe that her name is MISPELLED on her driver's license. She couldn't provide me with even a social sec card to verify. Her work badge had "DarLENE". She just says that everybody spells her name wrong.
I refuse to do the closing. Call the title company and signing service (which by the way, they are one and the same in this case) and they don't see what my problem is????
I'm just about to leave when they call me back and tell me to just have her sign the docs and they will notarize when I mail it back.
What would YOU Do??? HELP!!!
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/27/06 8:49am
Msg #122670
I had one company tell me once to get the docs signed and they would notarize when they got back. I told them I would not be a party to any fraud.
| Reply by NCLisa on 5/27/06 9:02am
Msg #122671
I can believe her name is mispelled on her license. I think 1 out of 10 licenses in NC have a typo, including my current one. The DMV charges another full fee to have a correct license made, so most people don't bother, sometimes you don't even notice the typo. DMV's across the country are not known for hiring the best and brightest.
I did a closing last week and the borrower was a resident alien, the name on his dl was mispelled, I was lucky, he had a resident alien card, and a passport.
| Reply by Paul Hampton on 5/27/06 10:36am
Msg #122681
Reasonable reliance
Were you reasonably certain that she was the person named in the docs, based on her ID? If so, you can notarize in CA, as per CA code and as per according to the SOS office.
I once had a signer whose ID read "Coleen". The docs read "Colleen". I notarized her as "Colleen" because it was reasonable that she was the same person as named in the docs.
However, if I had been told to get the docs signed and that Title would notarize them later, I'd play with them a little and ask how they would do that without the signer personally appearing before them, how they'd get a signature in their journal, and whose thumbprint they'd use in the journal.
Then I'd tell them to go pound sand.
| Reply by Pamela on 5/27/06 11:20am
Msg #122688
Paul Hampton Re: Reasonable reliance
Paul,
I beg to differ. In California (as well as in many parts of the country), not only are people spelling their names in different ways, but there is so much fraud! If the I.D. read Coleen and the documents were printed Colleen, I would have asked her for other forms of identification (as allowed in the Secretary of State handbook).
If she did not have acceptable I.D. then I would use credible witnessess!
Better to be safe than sorry!
Pam
| Reply by CaliNotary on 5/27/06 3:14pm
Msg #122713
Yet another instance where Credible Witness isn't allowed
You can't use credible witnesses if the borrower has a driver's license. Per the CA handbook, page 8:
4. The signer does not possess any of the identification documents authorized by law to establish the signer's identity.
Why so many people on this board seem to think that credible witnesses are just a catch all ID method is beyond me. They're not used to correct misspelled names, they're not used in place of an expired driver's license, they're not used because somebody left their purse at home, they're not used because somebody has changed last names and hasn't bothered to update either their ID or their name on the title to the property.
If the docs can't be signed because of ID issuses, then too bad, so sad. It's our duty as notaries to put the law above the convenience or wishes of the lender or borrowers and it's really really scary how many people on this board are willing to twist or use ridiculous interpretations of the rules to just get the signing done.
| Reply by LkArrowhd/CA on 5/27/06 3:33pm
Msg #122720
Re: Yet another instance where Credible Witness isn't allowed
Cali may I supply you with a German Sheperd that bites....you both might be well suited for one another.....I'm really just kidding...really
But you know how they say dogs and their owners often look and act alike......
Please no personal attacks......
| Reply by Pamela on 5/27/06 4:30pm
Msg #122725
CaliNotary
If the physical photo I.D. does not match the documents ". . . authorized by law"
(for whatever reason or reasons) as in this instance, then the person's identity IS NOT established. Therefore Credible Witnesses are to be used, period.
Pam
| Reply by CaliNotary on 5/27/06 5:43pm
Msg #122745
Re: CaliNotary
Wrong. Period.
"4. The signer does not possess any of the identification documents authorized by law to establish the signer's identity."
Where does it say that the person's identity has to BE established by the documents? It doesn't, it simply says that they do not POSSESS the documents. If a person has a driver's license, he is in POSSESSION of a document authorized by law to establish identity. Which means no credible witnesses can be used.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/27/06 5:55pm
Msg #122748
Re: CaliNotary
The Credible Witness wording for CA is the same as in Florida.
The only times I would use CW's is if the signer doesn't have ID and is hospitalized or in a nursing home or somehow physically unable to go get identification. Otherwise they have to go get a drivers license or a Florida ID card.
I have had to refuse notarizing when the signer had an expired ID, they have had to go get a current one, before I would notarize.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 5/27/06 6:01pm
Msg #122750
Re: CaliNotary - whew...I fell as if life can go on now...
I get so tense about this discussion. Thank you Sylvia!
Now...if you'll just help us out on this non-notarial cert - escrow docs / backdating thing - are we responsible / liable??? What? It is in another thread...if you'll help us put that one to rest I will sleep...either way, I'll sure be happy to hear your opinion on this one.
| Reply by Pamela on 5/27/06 6:56pm
Msg #122760
Sylvia FL
Sylvia,
First of all, I hope that all is well with you!
Secondly, I'm somewhat new to the signing business and would like to know:
Why aren't the loan officers and title company reps. being more responsible to ensure that the borrowers and their I.D.s are valid and correct before drawing-up the documents?
And why aren't these people reveiwing all the documents for accuracy before requesting a signing?
I understand that they all are busy, but if correct identification cannot be established by the notary, everything stops!
Thanks,
Pam
| Reply by BrendaTx on 5/27/06 7:06pm
Msg #122761
Re: Sylvia FL
Pamela - not Sylvia, but even in the 80's they took a copy of my DL, they processed the loan, at closing they took another copy of the DL during the closing.
It's always about time being short. The borrowers do not want to pay a big interest payment on their closing statement so loans are generally closed at the end of the month...almost all of them.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 5/27/06 7:10pm
Msg #122762
Re: Sylvia FL - Pam, by the way...time is no excuse, but it
not exactly a new thing that's happening with the docs and the ID. It's just the way it's always been as far as I know.
| Reply by Pamela on 5/27/06 11:43pm
Msg #122818
Brenda, Re: Sylvia FL
Thanks Brenda for replying!
From what I've been reading on the various boards, there seems to be a conflict (at times)when it comes to the listing of names in the loan documents and the borrower's actual identification. Time is money, but if something is done correctly the first time, there would be no need for papers to be redrawn, or appointments cancelled due to lack of proper IDs.
In my opinion both the loan officer and title company rep. should have more diligence in proofreading the documents! Instead, it's left to the notary to distinguished who is (or isn't)the "real" John Smith. Meaning that, it is the notary who may end-up being the
"fall-guy (or woman)", if the signing has to be postponed or cancelled. . . due to no valid
(or lack of) identification!
Pam
| Reply by CaliNotary on 5/27/06 9:17pm
Msg #122789
Thanks Sylvia
I can understand why some people on this board wouldn't put much stock into my interpretation here. If they don't like me then it's easy to just dismiss anything I write.
But people, it's pretty much the consensus of the board that Sylvia knows exactly what she's talking about when it comes to rules and laws. If she says it's true, you better believe that it is true.
| Reply by Pamela on 5/27/06 6:43pm
Msg #122759
Re: CaliNotary!
VERY GOOD POINT! I've never had it explained that way!
You are correct! Documents are not to be used to establish identity! If a person can produce a valid physical photo I.D. (although the name on the I.D. may be different from the name listed on the document), they still have an I.D.
So far, I've never encountered this problem (and hope I never do)!
However, if they have no valid physical photo I.D. Credible Witnesses should be used!
Pam
| Reply by CaliNotary on 5/27/06 9:06pm
Msg #122783
Re: CaliNotary!
I'm glad you understood my point because I was thinking about what I wrote as I was running out the door (to see the new X-Men, very underwhelming) and really wasn't happy with the way I responded.
Ultimately, if a person presents an ID, they've been identified. If it doesn't match the names on the docs, that doesn't mean we can use credible witnesses to make it match. If there's an error on the ID that's causing the mismatch, that's not our problem as a notary. It's the person's responsibility to get the error corrected with the DMV, not our responsibility to find a way to bend the rules to make it work.
An extreme example of the logic you had presented would be if I was presented with an ID that said Joe Smith, but the loan docs said Bob Jones, no problem, just get 2 credible witnesses to say the guy with the Joe Smith ID is really Bob Jones. When presented that way I think it's pretty obvious to all of us that we wouldn't be able to do that. And if we can't use credible witnesses to do that, we can't do it for any other name variations either, even if it's just a misspelling or a maiden name. We have to use the same principle and logic across the board.
But this is exactly the problem I see on this board. Too many people think using credible witnesses is just an all purpose way of filling in the gaps to make things legal so the docs can be signed. And it really isn't, and I want to scream when I see freaking notary instructors saying "hey, no problem".
Pam, you wrote "However, if they have no valid physical photo I.D. Credible Witnesses should be used!" If that's the case, why didn't they just say that in the notary handbook? Why did they go through the trouble of listing FIVE conditions that must ALL be met before we can use credible witnesses? Why did they use the phrase "very difficult or impossible to obtain another form of ID" if they really meant "if no other ID is available"? That's the logic that leads me to my conclusion, what is the logic behind YOUR interpretation?
I have yet to see anybody explain this; all I see is stuff like "it takes a few weeks to get the new ID from DMV, so it's impossible for them to have the proper ID at the signing which means credible witnesses are ok".
So let me pose a question to you and Joan and all of the other people who say we can use CW's pretty much anytime. Under what circumstances would you NOT allow the use of credible witnesses? And why did the SOS write such specific instructions about when the use of CW's if they really didn't want them used in only very specific situations?
| Reply by Pamela on 5/27/06 11:18pm
Msg #122814
Re: CaliNotary! Response
CaliNotary,
Thank You for responding!
I am still a "new" (few months experience) signing agent. Thus far, all of my borrowers have had valid identification. In class ("Yes, I know . . ." , we were taught that Credible Witnesses may be used if there were no valid photo I.D. to match the documents!
For instance Mary J. Smith is now Mary J. Thomas. The loan papers all show Mary J. Thomas. Her identification shows Mary J. Smith. If she was to present two Credible Witnesses, with valid photo I.D.s, that stated she is also Mary J. Smith or Mary J. Smith Thomas, that would be okay.
When in doubt, I always refer to the California Secretary of State Notary Handbook.
My interpretation is that "Credible Witnesses" is a form of identifying people, when there is no valid, photo I.D.
Also, if loan documents are to be sign at a specific appointment time, and many are time sensitive, it would be very difficult for a person to quickly obtain a new and/or corrective I.D.
Everyone isn't as up-to-date as they should be, when it comes to correcting a name (Yes, I know more excuses. . .)
I have seen arguments both pro and con on this board regarding the use of Credible Witnesses.
As stated earlier, I have yet to come-up against a situation like this.
When I agree to perform a signing, I ask the company for the borrowers name, telephone number and street address before I get the paperwork. Next, I telephone the borrowers (not only to confirm the apointment time) but to ask if they have valid identification. I then ask what type of identification do they have and what the name says on it (In the future, I will also ask them to spell it). In the event the names do not match, I will ask the agency for correction to the documents, before sending to me.
You wrote, "Under what circumstances would you NOT allow the use of credible witnesses?"
(This sounds like a test question "smile".) It is my preference that all borrowers have proper photo identification. However, I would not use Credible Witnesses if the situation itself seemed "suspect".
By the way, how good was the movie? My son wants to take my grandson to see it next weekend! I want to see, "See No Evil"!
Pam
| Reply by Jenny_CA on 5/27/06 11:39pm
Msg #122817
Re: CaliNotary!
I may not always agree with how things are said sometimes but one thing for sure , I know you know what you are talking about and with out you knowing your posts have helped me out alot.
As a matter of fact the latest instance that I wouldn't use CWs the SS supported me and I received my fee even though the signing didn't go through.
BTW went to see X-Men3 at midnight opening night. Will see it again as soon as I get the chance. Did you like the preview for Ghost Rider?
| Reply by Pamela on 5/27/06 11:24am
Msg #122689
Paul Spelling Correction: Witnesses! n/m
| Reply by TCMN on 5/27/06 11:33am
Msg #122690
My friends mom's name is Darleen. She gets things Darlene all the time since that has been the norm for the time when people were naming their children. But I agree that you should have more documentation since people are spelling names ALL different ways and you never know. Shawn/Sean/Shaun, Michael/ Micheal/Mikeal/Mikael/Michol.....too many variations.
Drivers Licenses can be wrong...if the person cares about their identity, they should've told the DMV that they made a mistake and had it corrected. Borrowers problem not yours. You have a job to do and correctly.
Be safe rather than sorry.
Oh, and if the company wants the docs signed and they will notarize when you send them back...let them know they can call their client and arrange that, not arrange that through you. But you will still be expecting payment for your time and printing, if they weren't over-nighted to you.
| Reply by janCA on 5/27/06 8:15pm
Msg #122772
Docs say Darline A, ID says Darlene Brown. Could be a totally different person. How did she sign her DL?
| Reply by whitesatin on 5/27/06 10:18pm
Msg #122801
I have seen this issue discussed over, and over, and over again. I have read CaliNotary's response over, and over,and over again. I have to tell you as a California notary, that I totally agree with CaliNotary. He is absolutely correct. Please listen to him for God's sake!
| Reply by Jack Daniels Mobile Notary Service on 6/1/06 7:39am
Msg #123385
I couldn't tell how the ID was signed, because her signature was so messy. I honestly don't think anyone could have deciphered what she signed.
This was definitely a learning experience for me. Thank you for all the responses. I appreciate the feedback. I didn't feel comfortable doing it...and when I'm being pressured by the title company "to just notarize it-what's the big deal"...I sometimes question myself.
I won't doubt myself next time!  Thanks again
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