Posted by Scott_IN on 5/18/06 9:20pm
Msg #120903

Interesting Signing Story, 1st Time For Me

Just thought I'd share what I think is an interesting story with everyone. Had a signing to go to this evening in a community 40 miles from my home. I had confirmed with the borrower yesterday, and received directions to there home. Turn here, go 3 blocks, look for the house with the NASCAR and American Flags in the yard. Well, as I am nearing the home, I come upon what at first glance looks like a dead-end street. driving up to a tree in the middle of the street. Then upon closer look, the tree has just fallen, and blocked the street. Guess who's home it hit, yes, the borrower. Wow! I talked to the borrowers who were standing in their front yard, looking over the damage and find out that had I been about 30 minutes earlier and parked in front of the house on the street, my car would have been smashed, like the car of their son. The tree was huge and the car was completely smashed. The tree also crushed their front porch and one wall of their living room. This was a first for me, never arrived at a home that had just suffered serious damage and completed a signing, but we did. But, we had to go in the back door. Anyone else have anything similar happen to them? Signing went well, and they were pleasant people, just happy I didn't arrive 30 minutes earlier, as I most likely would have parked right where the tree landed. (PS, please excuse my spelling and grammar errors, I am much better with numbers)

Reply by Joan_OH on 5/18/06 9:24pm
Msg #120904

Make sure you put in the notes back to lender that there is storm damage to the home. For all the lender knows, the borrowers homeowners insurance expired 2 days ago and the house is no longer worth what it appraised for.

Joan-OH

Reply by Anonymous on 5/18/06 11:20pm
Msg #120926

Joan...it is not the notary's responsibility to inform ANYONE of damage to the home. The notary's job is to make sure the documents are signed correctly and that what ever needs to be notarized is notarized.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 5/18/06 11:29pm
Msg #120931

I agree with Joan. We wear two hats,.......

one as a NP and one as a NSA.
As a NP, we are representing the public in accordance with
the laws of your state.
As a NSA , we are directly or indirectly representing the lender.
Would you feel no responsibility to advise the lender,
if you observed the the house had burned to the ground,
been carried away in a fllod or moved down the block by a tornado?
What if you believed a signer was under duress or incompetent to sign
but you were not noatarizing their signature, (eg. a co-signer not on title)?

Reply by Anonymous on 5/18/06 11:33pm
Msg #120934

Re: I agree with Joan. We wear two hats,.......

I totally disagree with you. We are there to do our job as a notary signing agent...not to give advice or opinions...

Reply by PAW on 5/19/06 7:07am
Msg #120966

Re: I agree with Joan. We wear two hats,.......

This is not a case of advising the borrowers about anything. The signing was completed. However, as a prudent Signing Agent, I too think it is best to inform the lender and title company of the circumstances of a signing. Even though this is probably an unfortunate accident, it certainly could result in a fraudulent claim of value for the lender.

Did the borrower's complete the survey affidavit? Read it carefully, and you may see some interesting wording about the condition of the property to which the signers are swearing to. If you KNOW of anything false in those statements, then you too, as a Notary Public, may be a party to fraud (extreme example).

Reply by Joan_OH on 5/19/06 9:50pm
Msg #121204

That is where I was going with this.....

Kinda like the owners affidavit asks if there are any contracts to sell the property. I think the lender might be interested if I pull up to a house for a refi and there is a "sold" sign in the yard. Those title affidavits, although sometimes called "junk docs", ask these types of questions.

I may be a notary public, but I represent the title company and lender when I am at the table as a signing agent. They hired me and I think they would want me to tell them if the property suffered severe damage.

Another signing agent scenario: While signing, the borrowers asks about my job because he just quit his job Monday and is looking for work. Loan app says he works at xyz company. I doubt the lender knows the borrowers financials seriously changed in the last few days and most times there are documents in the package that ask the borrower if his financials are basically the same as they were at application. Do we, as signing agents, just shove the paperwork in front of them and have them sign?

I am a signing agent, representing the entity that hired me and sometimes the only person the borrowers actually meet. Although being a notary public is necessary for this job, it is only a small part of it.

Joan-OH

Reply by TitleGalCA on 5/19/06 10:10pm
Msg #121207

Serve me up on the bar-b-que, but

I disagree, totally, with both Joan and Paul, and cannot be strong enough in saying so.

***I may be a notary public, but I represent the title company and lender when I am at the table as a signing agent. They hired me and I think they would want me to tell them if tyhe property suffered severe damage.***

No, actually you do not represent the title company or lender. I'll agree one of the two hired you, but you have a function at the table. If you met it, then that ends your responsibility.

Did the lender not hire an appraiser? I submit that is where the responsibility lies, not in the notary signing agent. I see it all the time here on this forum, notaries extending their responsibility waayyyyyyyy beyond what is required, or requested of them.

Notaries are not responsible for the Lenders decision in extending a loan, period.

This is a debate about something that a notary has no control over and I shudder to think that someone new reads these words and believe's their part in the transaction extends beyond presenting the docs, with some explanation, and notarizing them.

Reply by Joan_OH on 5/20/06 4:00pm
Msg #121276

Re: Serve me up on the bar-b-que, but

I'm sorry you disagree so strongly and I respect your opinion so let me clarify a bit.

I'm not talking about calling the lender cause the house is disgustingly filthy - they know that (appraiser)

I'm not talking about the borrower being an idiot, rude, foul mounthed, hitting on me, etc (why would they care?)

I'm not talking about the cops pulling away just as I'm pulling up - none of my business.

What I'm talking about is very recent events that the lender may not know about that could affect their lien such as

We get terrible storms Friday night and I have a signing Sat afternoon. Saturday morning, borrower calls me to say we don't have any power, storms you know. Can we do this at the coffee shop downtown. No problem. Later, on the evening news or in Sunday's paper, there's the teary eyed borrower holding onto the only surviving wedding photo in front of a foundation because the house blew accross the street Friday night. If I know this, shouldn't I let someone know? Title? Lender?

or

Borrower calls me saturday morning - can we do this at the coffee shop. no problem. Your route to the coffee shop takes you down the borrower's street and you've been looking at real estate lately, so you notice the for sale signs and see a sold sign. Slow down and look at it thinking "nice house, how did I miss that one!" For some reason the house address is familiar. You get to the table, start presenting and there is it....the same house address. Ok, I take your route, say nothing...I'm just there to notarize. Down the road several months it all starts to fall out. Borrower signed sellers docs on Tuesday, the week after we signed. Both Mortgages hit the recorder at the same time. (Did I mention the borrower was taking $100,000 cash out on the refi I did?). Lawyers get involved and I'm asked "what did the borrower say when you presented the owners aff where it asks if there were any contracts to sell?".

I'm not there to invade peoples lives and business, but I gotta cover my butt too. You work in title. Do title companies do a follow up title search just before funding to uncover really recent things like the above situation? If it was your file and lender is making a major claim on your title insurance company, would you have wished I would have told you the house had a sold sign?

I really would appreciate your input as you have more experience in the title end of it. Besides, I don't think I'm the Nazi Signing Agent and certainly don't want to become one. I just think the lender would want to know about the above situations and I don't think I am really out of line informing them of the extremes.

Joan-OH

Reply by TitleGalCA on 5/21/06 9:50am
Msg #121312

Re: Serve me up on the bar-b-que - Joan

There is always a risk when we issue a policy of title insurance. On the day we record a document, the public records that have recorded prior to our document can be behind from as little as 2 days (LA County) to 7 to 8 days in my county, and there is a county in Michigan that I understand has been as late as six months behind the day of recording. So, for that period of time, we risk the possibility of tax liens, un-insured grant deeds, loans, etc.

Before I issue certain endorsments or construction loan policies, I will send an inspection service to the site to see if any work has been performed which might break the priorty of my loan. I make sure the inspection is done the day before recording to eliminate the risk to the company. So, yes, Joan, we do search just before funding (a date down) and we do inspect properties to cover our butts before recording.

And we do this because we are the title company and it is our job to do that. It's our risk, so the responsibility lies squarely with us. We don't depend on a notary, hired for a specific purpose, to do our job for us.

It's the same with homeowners insurance. An inspection is done, and before a lender lends on a property, escrow has to verify a homeowners policy is in place, because the lender requires it. Every step is taken by the lender and the title company to reasonably assure everything is as it should be. Of course there are times that the system doesn't work and claims are filed but that is where all this insurance comes into play.

My only point Joan, is that the notary has a specific and defined purpose in the transaction and for a notary to feel like it's their responsibility to inform the condion of the property is just taking on something they clearly aren't responsible for.

A notary swoops in, just prior to recording documents for a loan or purchase for the specific purpose of going over loan docs and notarizing the signatures and in the course of an hour or two, in the company of strangers, they glean (in their minds) that the loan terms aren't "fair", the property is in poor condition, the borrowers aren't competent, etc. etc. Seems to me an awful lot of notaries take on role similar to a judge, and it's not appropriate for their job, which is quite limited.

I realize your situation about the tree is an extreme, and in most "extreme" situations, all bets are off and that's where common sense comes into play. I think as a policy, notaries shouldn't take on more than their job requires.

With all that being said, I remember a post by Sam-I-Am about elder abuse. I was the first one to jump in and say "Report those people"!

Reply by Sherri_NWA on 5/18/06 10:21pm
Msg #120912

I had one about 2 weeks ago. Had a closing with a couple, 84 yrs old mind you...she wanted to have this signing at Dairy Queen, so we did. She was the POA for her husband who was there to sign one paper. We got the closing done, I thanked them, and the next morning she called me to tell me that her husband had got out of the car, fell and broke his hip, he was in the hospital. I went to the hospital the next day while he was in surgery. Bless their hearts. I felt so bad for them...

You try not to get attached to some of these people, but when things like this happen it is hard not to feel for them!

Sherri in Arkansas

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 5/20/06 6:23am
Msg #121233

Interesting situation and discussion topic. There's the law, and ethics, and humanity at conflict with each other. As much as my heart wants to say "look the other way", that's the humanity factor - the law is the law, and I agree with Paul and Joan; however unfortunate it might be, odds are that pkg has sworn/notarized statements now fraudulently stating the condition of the property, and you definitely are aware of the condition/fraud. That would be my concern.

As for the other poster who mentioned the borrower's admission of having just lost his job - brings in the same issues of notarized statements that his/her employment or financial situation hasn't changed since application for the loan. You might want to strangle him for opening his mouth - but just like "you never know who you're talking to", you never know who you're signing, either. There are "Mystery Shoppers" out there in this industry also. Not that you should hold to the law just because you MIGHT BE CAUGHT, but in case you need fuel for your fire ...