Posted by NCLisa on 5/21/06 4:08pm
Msg #121337

Notary backdating....would you turn a notary in?

I was contacted to do a Countrywide Full Spectrum closing last month. It was supposed to close early evening on the 25th. The docs showed up at 11:40 pm. The closing was approx 20 minutes away in good weather, but that night the sky had dropped out, and we were having torrential rains, so it would have takend me 20 minutes to print and 30 minutes to get there. I said I could not backdate the docs, I would not be there until the 26, and everything would need to be dated that way. They offered me $400 then $600 to do it. I said NO. They told me they'd get someone else to do it, and at that time it was already 12:02am on the 26th. I've been watching the ROD's site, and sure enough, the DOT recorded dated the 25th.

In 16 years, I have never backdated anything. I am so angry that this notary would do that. I am really tempted to turn her in. Would you?

Reply by SueW/Tn on 5/21/06 4:13pm
Msg #121338

Let me put it this way....

HE$$ yes! In less than a heartbeat! Fact is I'm getting ready to hammer one myself! I take my oath/office very seriously and these "in your face" tactics don't cut it with me. Never will I need money enough to compromise my integrity nor the integrity of the office.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/21/06 4:24pm
Msg #121342

If I had sure proof, yes I would.

Reply by Roger_OH on 5/21/06 4:32pm
Msg #121343

Absolutely. The title of notary public is supposed to stand for and uphold the tenets of honesty and ethics. This person violated their oath and committed fraud, which is a FELONY.
This kind of behavior makes us all look bad; they knowingly committed a crime (for $$ inducement), and should be turned over to the SOS for revocation of their commmission and
whatever charges can be brought. Under the heat, they'll probably take down the company that requested it as well. Help get rid of this kind of stain on our office, and do the right thing.

Reply by Brenda/CA on 5/21/06 4:38pm
Msg #121346

I had a company ask me to backdate on Friday, I refused, I told them I would not date for anything but the actual signing date. When I informed him that it was illegal he said "really, I have notaries that do it all the time". Yes, if I knew who it was I would turn them in.

Reply by Cris_AR on 5/21/06 4:37pm
Msg #121345

Personally I would not.
I do understand your concern.
It is aggravating, I have been asked to back date numerous times.

Reply by Joan_OH on 5/21/06 5:10pm
Msg #121348

In your experience, will your SOS do anything about it? Do you have proof they backdated? Is the notary going to admit it? Is the title company going to admit it? Is the borrower going to admit it? I'm assuming nothing is in writing.

He says, she says. Although you KNOW this happened, how do you go about proving it? The borrower is the only one in this situation that could back you up and if they are happy with their loan and unwilling to piss the Lender off, why should they admit to their wrong doing? Is your state willing to take this case to court and put them under oath forcing them to tell the truth?

This is a tough one. We know what's right and what's wrong, but are we willing to do the legwork, paperwork, and everything else to get charges pressed? Personally, I might contact the other notary and "tell" them I know what they did and I was going to turn them in. Might be enough to straighten their act up. Turning in everyone else might get your blacklisted and why should YOUR business suffer because you follow the law.

Hmmmm. Tough call, but think of all your options before you act and how your actions in this situation is going to affect your livelihood. In the end, you are perfectly right to turn them in. But I wouldn't blame you if you didn't.

I'm a firm believer those who do wrong will get theirs....eventually. Maybe this notary has been doing this for a long time and your report with result in them "getting theirs"

Joan-OH

Reply by Calnotary on 5/21/06 5:21pm
Msg #121350

Its kind of hard when you have unethical notaries as your competition,and also unethical lenders as your customers. I would call the notary and have a little talk with them, probably he or she doesnt
know that "somebody else" KNOWS of his or her illegal activities.

Reply by NCLisa on 5/21/06 7:59pm
Msg #121364

Actually I have all the original emails, the email with the docs, the email stating they'd get another notary that would back date, everything.

Reply by Joan_OH on 5/21/06 8:48pm
Msg #121368

WONDERFUL! Under those circumstances, with proof in hand, I would report. I would just hate to see you report with no proof and end up spending time and resources on something you may never be able to prove.

I actually had a title company leave me a voice mail message asking if I could do a signing on Saturday......oh but there's one thing though.......everything needs to be dated for Friday...... What kind of goof would leave that on a voice mail that could be forwarded everywhere?

Good Luck!

Joan-OH

Reply by M LaBelle on 5/21/06 7:10pm
Msg #121357

Re: Notary backdating....would you turn a notary in? yep

I would, laws are made for a reason. If i did that someone would turn me in for sure they probably would not think twice

Reply by SueW/Tn on 5/21/06 7:40pm
Msg #121360

What I find weird here is this...

Ya know she was called and finally had to turn down the signing because of the time constraints...then we know DOT recorded for the same day requested of the back date. My problem is you'll blow up over a notary working for less than you would yet you wouldn't bother to stand up for the truth with regards to rules and regulations. I guess our priorities are different, I don't get upset about the notary fee war because it's something I cannot change, your business plan is definitely something personal that works for you. In your face committing an illegal act...now that happens to be a horse of a different color.

Reply by Nicole_NCali on 5/21/06 9:11pm
Msg #121371

Go to the county recorder first!!

You never know what happened on this one. I had a signing where the borrower was unable to make the appointment. She really needed the loan completed that night. She contacted her brother-in law or something like that and he was an attorney who was also a notary. The notarization happened late in the night.

I don't really like to get emeshed in situations like this unless I have both barrells loaded. If this bothers you, get the recorded dot and contact the notary to give a little informational about backdating.

Also throw in, borrowers if not happy with the loan, will use he/she as a scapegoat. Don't give them any ammo.

Reply by NCLisa on 5/22/06 5:17am
Msg #121404

Re: Go to the county recorder first!!

This borrower didn't sign the docs late at night, it was early in the morning or the next afternoon. There is no way in H#@% that they sent the docs to someone else that got them printed, and to the borrowers house before midnight. Docs showed up to me at 11:40pm. There is no way they contacted someone that magically printed out a package, got to borrowers home and signed DT before midnight.

As for the DT, got a copy, our Register of Deeds offices are online.

Reply by Tina_MA on 5/21/06 10:16pm
Msg #121379

I am floored that so many Notaries would think twice about turning in a Notary who is backdating.

First off, we're Notary Publics, not the police, not investigators -- all we need to know is that a Notary is committing fraud and turn them in. It is up to the police, SOS, and Attorney General's office to investigate.

If you have some proof (i.e. confirmation, emails, voice mails, letters, etc.), then by all means, turn it over to the appropriate government agency, to help them in their pursuit of justice.

Remember, all the police, SOS, and Attorney General needs to do is start looking into all the notarial acts the Notary has done to see if there is a pattern of behavior -- and I guarantee, if someone stoops to backdating, they've completed other illegal Notary acts as well.

But to not do anything is akin to ambivalence. And that is why our position has disintegrated so much -- no one cares to take a stand for what is right.

Reply by Nicole_NCali on 5/21/06 11:10pm
Msg #121384

Ok..the notary is turned in and nothing happens...

Look, I have full time job where I investigate and make determinations all day. The office of Notary public is serious and making accusations is serious too.

None of us know the full background behind this signing. We can make a bunch of assumptions, but it is just assumptions. She states that the title company was going to find someone to do the signing. She has a recorded document that may or may not bear the same day. If she doesn't have all the facts lined up and documents (the email is one), what do you think the SOS or AG will think?

Unfortunately, fraud is very hard to detect and even harder to prove (cliche). I am just of the policy that if I am going to jump in the fire, I am going to have all my ducks lined up in a row. I never assume...

Reply by Tina_MA on 5/22/06 10:36am
Msg #121442

Re: Ok..the notary is turned in and nothing happens...

>>>Look, I have full time job where I investigate and make determinations all day. The office of Notary public is serious and making accusations is serious too.<<<

>>>I am just of the policy that if I am going to jump in the fire, I am going to have all my ducks lined up in a row. I never assume...<<<

Your job has nothing at all to do with the subject at hand.

We ARE NOT investigators. It is NOT OUR JOB to have "ducks lined up in a row".

Your hypothesis is flawed. You're saying that if I overhear someone saying that they robbed a bank last week, that since I don't have proof, and since it's a serious allegation, that I should investigate first, before calling the police.

We as Notary Publics are not trained to conduct investigations, nor should we do so. An allegation is just that -- an allegation.

An allegation has to be investigated by the proper authorities to see if it has merit. If there is no merit to the allegation it will be dropped. If there is merit, then the person will be brought up on charges.

By not saying anything, we are accessories after the fact. And by virtue, breaking the law as well.

Reply by Nicole_NCali on 5/22/06 1:28pm
Msg #121491

If my logic is flawed..let take off my investigator hat..

What I am saying is this, if the notary committed the act of backdating of course she/he sholb be reported. but what is even worst is the company that asked the notary to do the backdating. This company may have a long history of this kind of act.

The notary is small beans in most instances. What would be a good goal is to start reporting all of the signing services and title companies that ask for back dating.

Reply by Tina_MA on 5/22/06 1:55pm
Msg #121499

Re: If my logic is flawed..let take off my investigator hat..

I agree to a certain extent.

However, if there are no Notaries that will backdate, then the companies will have no choice but to clean up their act.

I say this because I have gotten signings back, after they were unable to find a Notary who will backdate. The TC/LO/SS has the docs re-drawn, if needed, and the signing is dated for the date it actually takes place on.

It's supply and demand. If there is no one suppling the backdating, the demand cannot be met.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 5/22/06 5:06am
Msg #121402

Re: BACK-DATERS & NEWBIES PLEASE READ THREAD!

The law itself notwithstanding, this thread might help you make your decision the next time you consider back-dating!

Everytime you back-date, you:

1. Sell your integrity for the benefit of someone else's greed.
2. Leave behind recorded PROOF of your crime (Mtg/DOT)
3. Assume that nobody will ever know.
4. Participate in breaking FEDERAL law (frauding recsission period, for one - usually back-dating is going to shorten it to less than 3 days)

You will be handed a line of crap - most often, that the Borrower's rate lock will expire and they'll have to have a higher rate (this is designed to snag your humanity AND obtain borrower's cooperation, and it's USUALLY BS!) Back-dating is all about homage to the Almighty Dollar, usually from the Loan Officer, often w/o the Lender's knowledge or the Borrower's awareness of the laws being broken.

THE FACT THAT THE LENDER IS USUALLY NOT A PARTICIPANT IN THIS should be very scary to you!! The vast majority of loans are brokered - a Loan Officer, through his employer, brokers (acts as a middle-man) the loan to the Lender. L/O's are the usual push behind back-dating. In the majority of these cases, the LENDER is on guard looking to catch you, too!

And do you think most Borrowers KNOW that they, you and anyone else involved in the fraud are breaking state and federal laws? That they, you and anyone else involved can be easily caught, which would result in any of the following:

1. Immediate & complete pay-back demand from Lender of the mtg funds
2. Borrower's then filing lawsuit against YOU and everyone else for repair & restitution of those damages (there's no insurance you can obtain that will cover lawsuits against your ILLEGAL ACTIONS).
3. Your finding some other means of making a living, and now with a criminal record
4. Loan Officer joining you on Monster.com

Reply by SueW/Tn on 5/22/06 8:36am
Msg #121414

WELL DONE RENEE! BRAVO! BRAVO!

Brenda...a superior candidate for the newbie thread!

Reply by Tina_MA on 5/22/06 10:13am
Msg #121435

Re: BACK-DATERS & NEWBIES PLEASE READ THREAD!

>>>You will be handed a line of crap - most often, that the Borrower's rate lock will expire and they'll have to have a higher rate (this is designed to snag your humanity AND obtain borrower's cooperation, and it's USUALLY BS!) Back-dating is all about homage to the Almighty Dollar, usually from the Loan Officer, often w/o the Lender's knowledge or the Borrower's awareness of the laws being broken.<<<

This is correct. The lender has the ability to extend the rate lock for a day or two, IF the LO calls the lender, or completes the appropriate paperwork.

It is not unheard of to have a rate lock extended. The problem is many LO's, TC's, and SS's are more interested in just getting the loan signed at any cost, rather than going back to the lender for an extension.

And if you think, that because you backdated last year, or the year before, and haven't been caught so it's okay, think again.

What will happen is the borrowers you backdated will get another loan. The new Notary will go over, in detail, the RTC, HUD, Note, and TIL, and briefly go over the rest of the docs in the package.

At some point during that process, the borrower will tell the new Notary, "The other Notary didn't do this and didn't know anything about our loan. In fact, that Notary had us put the wrong date on everything and we didn't even have three days to cancel. We didn't know what we were signing and they rushed us right through it. We didn't find out until later that the loan wasn't what we thought it was, but it was too late to get out of it. The whole thing was a nightmare and that's why we have to get this new loan."

Well, when borrowers tell me this, I give them the phone number to the Attorney General's office and the Governor's Legal Counsel to file a complaint. I'll bet that most, if not all, call and complain about the backdating and not having a RTC.

Years ago, one borrower was so grateful that I gave her the numbers, that she called me constantly and told me what was going on with her case. She eventually was reimbursed for her closing costs, her prepayment penalty and some other monies. She was told that the Notary lost their commission for their part in the fiasco.

So before you think about backdating, know this, it can and will follow you. It is not an isolated instance, there is a trail, and there are other people involved who know you did this illegal act. Your illegal act will catch up with you, when you least expect it.

Reply by meizmel on 5/22/06 12:38pm
Msg #121470

Re: BACK-DATERS & NEWBIES PLEASE READ THREAD!

Title companies also play big a part in this. . .I was a loan officer with a sub prime lender and I have seen many instances where a loan officer found out AFTER the signing that the docs were back dated. Title companies (and shady SA's) are often times so fearful of losing a big client that they will do what they feel is necessary to get the loan closed "without any issues". When it comes to the end of the month push and many LO's are trying to get their last few loans out, title companies, as you all know, are also getting bombarded with a lot of work and some times forget to set up the closing (and no, they will never admit making a mistake). What is the result of this? Calling an SA and asking them to back date the docs. I feel that there are many guilty parties, it isn't just the LO's. Don't get me wrong, I have seen LO's play a part here and there, but they are not the only source, or primary source of fraudulent activity. In my experience it is primarily the title companies that will push for this type of thing and will NOT notify the lender or LO that their is any sort of problem. They solve the problem with backdating.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 5/23/06 5:04am
Msg #121653

Re: Meizmel - excellent point made & taken

I do apologize for making it seem like back-dating requests always generate from the L/O, I didn't mean to. You're right about the T/C's and SS's - and I'm sure even individual SA's factor into it, as well - overbooking themselves, and playing 'catch-up' the next day.

As you said, there are many guilty parties and coming from all points of the transaction. I don't have numbers to back up my opinion, but I'd still bet large sums of someone else's money (lol) that L/O's do factor as the primary sources of fraud, though. Whether by coaching, arranging, or actually performing.

Reply by Dee_Fla on 5/22/06 12:22pm
Msg #121467

Personally, I would report the TC/Lender who asked you to do this. They are asking us to committ fraud. We have choices, we can go along with them and do the crime (and eventually the time) or we can choose to protect ourselves. Any TC/Lender who ask you to committe fraud is in a habit of doing so and they should be reported. From there, whatever government agency is involve in the investigation will pick up the notaries who are backdating docs for money.

just my thought.....dee

Reply by NCLisa on 5/22/06 2:50pm
Msg #121513

It was Countrywide Full Spectrum that insisted on the backdating and hired the new notary themselves. I notified ServiceLink of the issue, and they went a head a recorded the DT knowing it was backdated.

Reply by MelissaCT on 5/23/06 12:41pm
Msg #121733

Difficult to prove

Perhaps they found someone who was right next door (figure of speech), who ID'd and performed all the notarizations before the strike of midnight...