Posted by LynnNC on 5/15/06 11:32pm
Msg #120087

Signature issue

I had a signing today for a man from Nigeria. Let's say his name printed on the docs was "Patrick Doe", and he signed his name with the cursive letters "PD", which matched his signature on his driver's license and initialled with the printed letters "PD".

When I asked him to sign his name as printed, he said that in Nigeria people sign as he does and they do not have signatures as do the people of most countries. He did not want to sign any other way, so I let him continue with just the cursive initials. There was a Signature Affidavit. which he again signed with the cursive letters " PD".

I put a memo with the documents explaining the way his signature appeared. Do you think that I will have a problem with the lender or title company?

Reply by TitleGalCA on 5/15/06 11:34pm
Msg #120088

No - if the man says his signature is what it is, and the ID matches, you've done your job!

Reply by Tina/Idaho on 5/15/06 11:37pm
Msg #120090

I just did a signing last week, woman from Nigeria also. She too wanted to sign that way as your borrower. Had to have her practice a few times on scratch paper, signing her full name as listed on the docs. She kept saying it wasn't her signature. But she at least did it the way the lender wanted it.

When a signer doesn't want to sign the way their name is stated on the docs I always have them write a statment to that fact and why. Then it is "their problem" and not mine. Don't know if you will have a problem with the lender or title company. It could go either way. Good luck.

Reply by carlos/nyc on 5/15/06 11:48pm
Msg #120091

We as Notary Signing Agents are not suppose to change the way the borrowers sign their name. Like titlegal mentioned, if the signature matches the ID and that is the way the borrowers sign then we've done our job.

Reply by Drakester_IA on 5/16/06 12:16am
Msg #120095

I probably have one of THEEEEEEE most illegible signatures I have ever seen (including doctors) That is the only way I will sign. If I were to sign any other way then that indicated on my ID, I would consider it a forgery. If we as notaries do not examine the signatures and do our best to make sure the signature and the ID match, Then where does our "positivley IDing the signer fall?

Reply by TnNotary on 5/16/06 8:21am
Msg #120125

What about when the SS and title company require docs to be signed as printed on docs, what do we do then? A lot of my borrowers tell me the name on the docs are not their signatures or they do not use that name.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 5/16/06 4:14am
Msg #120105

Nobody should ever induce anyone to alter their signatures - instead, alter the perspective you have towards signatures.

Instead of considering a signature as WORDS, consider it a PICTURE, a drawing or an icon, (their "mark"!) We each have the legal right to 'draw' our signature as WE design, and as we have it documented on our ID/DL.

The key to keeping a loan pkg compliant is keeping the borrower's signature CONSISTANT.

If his 'picture' for his name looks like a daisy, and his ID shows a daisy, so be it. By drawing that daisy, he is saying "This daisy is MY mark for my name, which is Joe. Q. Public." As long as it doesn't turn into a rose or a tulip - it's all good to go.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/16/06 8:17am
Msg #120121

Nigerian signatures are very interesting - almost like a symbol.

Reply by Sign/SealCO on 5/16/06 8:45am
Msg #120130

Re: why would you have any person practice their signature?

if the practice session is to alter their normal signature, it no longer their signature.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 5/16/06 8:03am
Msg #120119

My opening spiel is
"please sign your names as they are printed
I will then ask "Does that sgnature say John L Jones?"and get
a "yes"
I will generally let them do their own thing
Exception where they write legibly and
docs are printed John L Jones and they
sign as J Lawrence Jones
or John Jones
Same if dox are
Suzy l Smith-Jones and
she signs Suzy Smith
In that case I will suggest that they sign exactly as
dox are printed
Illinois only require that I identify a borrowr by "identificatin Documents"
ID is based on NP's good judgement
We are not reqd to match sig to ID sig

Reply by NCLisa on 5/16/06 11:47am
Msg #120204

It is the same in NC, I amd just identifing that the borrowers are who they say they are. If there signatures are legible, and they are missing a middle initial, then I'll have them add that. But if there signature is a symbol, chinese or a scrawl, then it won't look anything like their name to begin with, so it doesn't matter. My signature is my first middle initial and last, but you'd never be able to tell, looks more like a symbol. If anyone told me to write it out, I'd tell them to stuff it, after several failed wrist surgeries, no way am I causing myself pain by making it more work than it has to be.

Reply by Dee_Fla on 5/16/06 10:00am
Msg #120155

I always tell them they need to sign exactly as it is pre-printed on the dox otherwise it can slow the process of them getting their money and the papers would have to be redone, etc...and that always works...but at times I find they just don't listen and sign it the way they want to anyhow. Hey...I did my part and gave them the disclaimer, so if they choose to sign it their old habit then i can't do anything about it. -dee

Reply by PAW on 5/16/06 8:59pm
Msg #120341

The FL SOS has told me in the past that whatever the signer declares as their "signature" is their legal and official signature. The legality of the "signature" is expressed in Title 1 of the US Code as amended on June 25, 1948:

" 'signature' or 'subscription' includes a mark when the person making the same intended it as such;

By definition:

- a : the act of signing one's name or of making a mark in lieu thereof

- b : the name of a person written with his or her own hand to signify that the writing which precedes accords with his or her wishes or intentions

- c : any mark (as initials, stamp, or printed name) made on a document and intended to serve as an indication of the party's execution or authentication of the document and intent to be bound by it —see also PRIVATE SIGNATURE

Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

So, in my non-attorney opinion, a persons signature as that person declares it and so writes it, whether or not it "matches" what is printed beneath their signature, does not invalidate or otherwise not commit the signer to be bound by the document.

Reply by Becca_FL on 5/16/06 9:06pm
Msg #120343

Thank you, Paul.

You have given me another page to add to my reference book.

I hope all is well with you and yours. We miss you here.

Reply by Dee_Fla on 5/16/06 10:10pm
Msg #120365

Thank you Paul for verifying that info with me. I was only relating to info that was told to me by other notaries and SS's and some TC's. It makes better sense to me. Dee

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 5/17/06 10:17am
Msg #120442

This is our understanding, too, PAW. It doesn't matter how the signer signs, what matters is the signer's intention when he signed. He either signs with intent to fulfill the document's stated purpose or he signs with the intent to defraud.

So technically, a borrower can sign John Paul Jones loan documents as JP Jones and they are legitimate documents. It's the companies wanting his signature that have made it otherwise. In this era of "sign as your name is printed" I have changed my signature from mgmiller to marlenegmiller - it doesn't matter how I sign, but I got tired of arguing. Now I'm thinking about making it illegible just to tweak some noses.

Also a non-attorney opinion - we ran it by a lawyer, but we're still cautious!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/16/06 6:23pm
Msg #120291

I love it when a borrower has an illegible signature because then no one can tell what they've signed or what it says. Like Bob - Chicago, I ask them if that is their signature for "John Q Jones" or whatever is typed on the docs and if they say "yes", that'f good enough for me. Only if it's significantly different from their ID, would I worry. If I had them sign in a manner that is different from how they normally sign their name everywhere else, if that transaction ends up in court, the attorney is going to go right after the signature issue and is likely to prevail.

The only time I've run into a problem with this was with a woman with very neat handwriting who insisted that she not have to sign with her middle initial, as shown on the docs. Unfortunately, the difference was clearly apparent. Fortunately, I had her sign a note to the effect that she insisted on signing her name as she did in the docs, contrary to my request. Sure enough, I was back there the next day having her re-sign everything (and I got paid twice).