Posted by SamIam_CA on 5/18/06 11:16pm
Msg #120923

Signing took place before date on DOT and Note

I just read all of thread 119459 where the SA did a signing on the 6th for docs dated the 7th and got chewed out because the docs were no good. In this case there was a miscommunication about when the signing would/should happen so the actual date issue wasn't really clear to me.

I accepted an order for e-docs for a signing that 'needs to take place tonight.' So I printed them and went to the signing. There was a grant deed changing the vesting and a rescission of homestead dated today - but the RTC, DoT, Note etc. were all dated the 19th.

I changed the RTC dates and had the borrower initial. I didn't change anything else - had her sign with today's date and notarized using today's date. Is there anyway of knowing if this is going to fly or not - other than getting the dreaded phone call on Monday when they get the docs? I mean other than calling....

Reply by GF_CA on 5/18/06 11:28pm
Msg #120930

You need go back and do the resign

this append to me, docs where sign one day after.

Reply by Anonymous on 5/18/06 11:31pm
Msg #120933

You are going to have to re-do the signing. You can never have a borrower sign post dated docs...even if you were rushed to do the signing...it is still your (the notary's) responsibility to check the doc date before you go to the appointment...you might be able to get an extra trip fee out of this...or maybe not...it depends on who hired you

Reply by SamIam_CA on 5/19/06 12:08am
Msg #120950

**You can never have a borrower sign post dated docs**

So are you saying that it is illegal for the notarization to take place on a date prior to the dates on the documents; or that loans can not close if the borrower signs before the date of the DoT and Note.

I wasn't rushed to do the signing. I made sure the package was complete before I went. They knew I was doing the signing today, so why send me docs dated tomorrow?

I can understand how it is my responsibility if what I just did is illegal. (So glad I posted that in a public forum.) I interpreted a message on the other thread to be saying that the loan funding is at the discretion of the lender if the docs are signed early...now I'm confused...

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 5/19/06 12:56am
Msg #120954

Wells Fargo sends loan packages direct to borrowers with instructions to find a notary and get the necessary notarizations. Those docs are usually dated in the future. But the borrowers sign and date them for the date they are signng. None that I've done have ever been rejected.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/19/06 2:23am
Msg #120955

This could be one of those state-specific things. I'm not aware of any CA notary law that says anything about the date on the docs. If I saw a situation like that, I'd ask someone (i.e. lender, tc) about that particular set of docs, if possible, but I don't consider the content of the documents my responsibilty. Au contraire!! My responsibility is that the signing and notarizing dates are correct. It's up to the lender what dates (or anything else) they want to put on the docs, except for the notary certificate area. (And of course, borrowers' signature date, if it's being notarized.)

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 5/19/06 4:56am
Msg #120959

You'll probably have to have the RTC re-signed.

Lenders have 104 reasons for closing prior to the printed "Transaction" date, and it's all perfectly legit, legal and their decision to make AS LONG AS you use the current, correct date when notarizing. Generally, the borrowers are also to use the current, correct date wherever they place a date, also.

However, NEVER shorten anyone's rescission period, unless you are specifically instructed to do so.

There are several dates for loan documents:

TRANSACTION date = the date the transaction becomes effective, and that might be in the future. If it's in the past, most likely it's an error but not necessarily - however, the RTC then should be corrected (and I would recommend by lender's directive!). This also brings the interest adjustment into play, and a call to verify the docs are dated correctly would be in order.

SETTLEMENT date = this is the date on the Hud, and should match the date being signed, do not change to correct w/o receiving lender OR title's directive

PRINT date = simply the date the docs were printed.

DISBURSEMENT date = date on Hud indicating the projected disbursement of funds. It's not ALWAYS printed or shown, often is blank. It's also the date used to calculate the interest adjustment, would generally be the date after end of rescission date (next business day). NEVER change this (unless by specific directive of title).

SIGNING date = this would be the date actually signed. Anything YOU date would always be with actual & correct date.

RESCISSION or End of Rescission date = the date the rescission period ends. This can be LONGER than the minimum of 3 business days.

To "Back-date", for those who need clarification, is for the Notary to use a date prior to the actual & correct date. This is illegal. (Of course, they would want borrower to back-date as well.) It is requested with the intent of fraudulently presenting the docs as if signed the day (or days) prior, in order to disburse sooner (usually to meet the end of the month, usually so the L/O can have that loan in this month's paycheck). Not only is it illegal for YOU, it is illegal (FEDERAL LAW) for THEM to fraud the rescission & usually it becomes shortened to less than three days.

Reply by SamIam_CA on 5/19/06 10:06am
Msg #121002

Wow - great post - glad it was added to 33325.

I've decided to call the broker before I drop the docs in FedEx - just to give them a heads up so they can check with the Lender. I just can't spend the whole weekend in suspense! The link to the docs are still in my e-mail so if they tell me to re-print and do the signing again I'm ready.

Whoops - change 'tell me' to 'ask me' - because if I'm going out again, I am charging.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 5/19/06 10:31am
Msg #121012

Re: What if. . .

As some know, USNA does not recommend notarizing docs with a dated date (not funding date) in the future.

Hypothetically, could anything run afoul if the recission date falls before the dated date of a loan document? Is that something a signing agent should catch and call to see if a correction is in order?

Or is it usual for recission dates to fall before document dates on post-dated documents?

Thanks for the info.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 5/20/06 5:25am
Msg #121228

Re: What if. . .

The rescission period wouldn't begin until the effective date of the Security Instrument, regardless of the date signed/delivered being PRIOR to that. TILA stipulates that it be the LATTER. The Effective date would kick in the actual "occurance ... that gives rise to the right of recsission...", which kicks in the rescission.

The Settlement date and the Effective date and the date the rescission begins would all be the same date, in this situation.

Again, I would strongly suggest that anyone facing date issues that don't seem 'okay' to them to obtain directives from the appropriate source. I would never suggest anyone alter ANY date on ANY document w/out a directive. I did hope to elliminate the frequent assumptions I see where folks equate dating in the future as some kind of fraud attempt, or as "wrong" or "illegal", and the often posted idea that a document with a future effective date "doesn't exist".

One very common scenario is when you have two or more borrowers in different states (or not local to each other), on the same loan. Another situation is when seller/buyer are in different states (or just not local to each other). Or, as has been posted, when docs are just prepared sufficiently in advance, to accomodate signing convenient to borrower.

Marlene - I was not aware of the USNA's stance on this, but would like to know more about the why's behind it? It is a complicated issue, to be sure, and not one that a loan signer should (or I hope would) take on themselves. The dates involve not only the rescission period, but the terms of the loan - interest adjustment in particular. A loan that disburses on a date conflicting with the stated date would have ... problems. All the dates tie together.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 5/20/06 5:33am
Msg #121229

Correction to above post

Settlement date would not necessarily match Effective date.
Effective date and date recsission begins would match, in that situation.

Reply by Dee_Fla on 5/19/06 6:52am
Msg #120965

that is why I always review the docs when I print on those dates and if the dates are questionable, I do call the TC or/and SS about it to verify why the dates are different. If they are overnight docs, if they are shipped to the borrower, I review them before we do the signing...and again I question the TC if the dates are not correct. There is so much mortgage fraud going on that you can't always be careful enough at times. Better to be safe and ask then to proceed with something that may be illegal actions. Hope that makes sense.

I'm sure every state may be different...but I'm sure they are not that much different on certain things...including dates on doc's-when the signing should be.

when in doubt...ASK!!! ...better to be safe then sorry later.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 5/19/06 7:38am
Msg #120967

Sam, you did nothing illegal.

It is not illegal to have the brw's sign the pre-dated package.
As long as you corrected the RTC and didn't notarize with an incorrect date.
It may be a problem for the lender, but maybe not.
I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Reply by GF_CA on 5/19/06 9:04am
Msg #120983

Re: Sam, you did nothing illegal.

If docs are dated for one day later or two days later, they are like do not existed.

Reply by Calnotary on 5/19/06 9:44am
Msg #120992

Re: Sam, you did nothing illegal.

Not existed? Not really, you have them in your hands. The problem is to sign, date and notarize
with a future date, but if youre doing it with actual date, NO PROBLEMO, my opinion of course!

Reply by GF_CA on 5/19/06 10:31am
Msg #121013

Re: Sam, you did nothing illegal.

I did one and was rejected!

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 5/19/06 10:37am
Msg #121017

Re: GF_CA, could you give us more information, please?

What company, why rejected, etc.

Reply by GF_CA on 5/19/06 12:02pm
Msg #121055

Re: GF_CA, could you give us more information, please?

I was contacted by the Signing Service (SS) for a signing on February 6 for e-docs. I realize docs were dated for May 2nd. I attempted to contact the SS to correct the documents but, no one was available to assist me because the time ( late evening), so I decide to go forward with the signing as requested. I change the RTC and borrowers initial it. The escrow doc were then dated May 1st. The SS and Title Company rejected these documents, so I received the correct documents, rescheduled and returned to the client for the signing on May 2nd and was paid for the second trip. The SS indicated that it was not my fault and apologized.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 5/20/06 5:48am
Msg #121231

Re: GF_CA

Can't say as I've ever seen docs dated 3 months in advance - this is bizarre to say the least.

Bear in mind - sometimes docs have errors, sometimes the errors are with dates, and sometimes the effective date is intended to be a little in the future. Some lenders will never do future dates, some do it routinely. Some lenders will accept hand-corrected date changes, some won't and will do a re-draw.

Every lender has their own compliance guidelines, according to their own needs/decisions and according to the requirements of their own investors (and of course, the laws as they apply). While there is a lot that is uniform & standard, there is just as long a list of possibilities that are unique to each lender - and that doesn't arbitrarily make it wrong, illegal, or fraudulent.

Reply by NCLisa on 5/19/06 10:44am
Msg #121019

I used to be an escrow officer in CA. Most of the time the docs were either dated for the last day they could be signed, or the date they landed on my desk. It was also customary not to schedule a closing until I had the docs in my hand. As long as the date on the notary ack matched the day the borrowers signed, every thing was ok. Changing the dates on the RTC was all you needed to do. I don't think things have changed that much in CA. You did everything right.

Reply by SamIam_CA on 5/19/06 8:25pm
Msg #121179

Here's the update - the broker decided I need to re-print and re-sign today. I decided to charge them 50% for my return trip - easy world savings package. I guess they were not mad about the re-sign because they have me doing a Downey Savings for them tonight as well. I'm very relieved that I didn't do anything technically wrong. Now I get to keep my 100% error free tag line.

Reply by GF_CA on 5/19/06 11:13pm
Msg #121211

I guess I was right! you should charge your full fee :) n/m