Posted by NCsignguy on 11/2/06 10:46am
Msg #156835
False notarization (please help)
Question I had a NJ closing that the female borrower said was single. I notarized some paperwork stating that she was single. After some time she alerted me that she is married but her husband had left her last year and he can not be found. She said her lawyer told her she is single. There has been no official divorce. Am at any liability for notarizing a document that I now know is false. I still have not dropped the package as of yet, the title company said to just send them the paper work. Any help would be appreciated.
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Reply by Charm_AL on 11/2/06 10:49am
Msg #156838
wow...that's a tough spot to be in. I would not want to send in my seal on a single, now knowing that's not the case. But can we legally hold onto or destroy a set of docs? Anyone?
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Reply by Rives/NC on 11/2/06 10:52am
Msg #156839
I wouldn't take any chances, don't drop the package unless you change the docs indicating she is married. I would ask for divorce papers first, if she can't produce them, don't do it. You are the notary responsible, not the words of her lawyer. Unless I'm wrong, not familiar with NJ laws, but you just can't say you are single b/c the spouse isn't found, you need black and white proof. THat's just me!
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Reply by Charm_AL on 11/2/06 10:57am
Msg #156840
What bothers me is that he signed to the effect that she is single, but now knows she in fact is not. I'd be scared to death to send those papers in. This is a future lawsuit looking to happen when the hubby finds out. I wish someone would post on what to do. Personally, I would not drop.
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Reply by NCsignguy on 11/2/06 10:59am
Msg #156842
i think i will cross out my notirization and wirte a note underneath.
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Reply by Traveling2U on 11/2/06 11:13am
Msg #156847
That's a good idea straight lines a good ;-D good call!! n/m
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Reply by Jersey_Boy on 11/2/06 11:02am
Msg #156844
What county in NJ was the property?
I think holding onto the docs could get you into trouble too. I would ship them out with a note that you found out (after the notarizations were performed) that the borrower is signing to the truth that she is "single" when in fact she MAY (don't write IS, write MAY) still be married.
I'd inform the Title Co in the note that you intend to let your SOS know of the situation. I'd also alert the NJ Dept. of Notaries and/or the County Recorder's office.
Let me know the county the NJ property was located in and I'll get you the contact info.
--THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVISE. JUST MY OPINION AS I SEE IT--
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Reply by NCsignguy on 11/2/06 11:19am
Msg #156849
Monmouth County
Just spoke to legal at the title company. she said to cross out the stamp on any the document which she swears or is sworn she is single and to drop the docs
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Reply by Traveling2U on 11/2/06 11:33am
Msg #156855
There it is!!
I'm glad you found out and shared now they can find someone else who want to have legal issues down the line. gotta watch those Jurats ;-D
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Reply by Charles_Ca on 11/2/06 12:19pm
Msg #156861
Re: False notarization (please help)Make sure that
you note what happened in your notary journal for future reference, this could get nasty!
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Reply by Pamela on 11/2/06 12:38pm
Msg #156867
NCsignguy, Question:
As these docs will probably be redrawn,
Will you still receive your full fees for this incomplete signing?
Pam
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Reply by Gary_CA on 11/2/06 1:02pm
Msg #156873
Who cares?
Okay, I shouldnta been quite that smart alek Pamela... but if we're talking about the possibility of involving the notary in illegally selling a property $1XX one way or the other is the least of his problems.
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Reply by Pamela on 11/2/06 1:22pm
Msg #156881
Gary, I do!
The "issue" has already been settled with title.
The documents are to be returned.
Remember, no one wants to work for FREE (not even a Realtor).
Wanted to ensure that when all is said and done,
the fees are paid as promised.
Pam
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Reply by Gary_CA on 11/2/06 1:25pm
Msg #156883
Yeah you're right...
but the only thing I hate worse than working for free is paying out money for the work I did... E&O is ugly in any profession.
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Reply by Gary_CA on 11/2/06 1:08pm
Msg #156876
The verbal opinion of a lawyer
Is worth as much as the paper it's written on or the collective honor of their profession... whichever is greater.
I know you can only bug the legal dpeartment of a TC so much, but if I could I'd try to get 'em to email you something.
If I couldn't get them to write me something, I'd write good plain notes of my phone call, put it in the package and fax a copy (keeping the confirmation).
You've got your stamp on a false doc with no fault of your own, but then you have knowledge after the fact. Now you're "un-notarizing" the doc. 10 years later who's gonna know who crossed out what when. Then you've got two lawyers with differing opinions (ever met a lawyer that was wrong?) AND... not that you've done it, but if it could be construed that you decided that she couldn't sign as single in spite of what she says her lawyer said, later corrected by what you said their lawyer said... if it could be construed that you made any of the decisions it'd be UPL
I'd want more in my file than just the memory of a phone call.
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Reply by jlissem on 11/2/06 10:59am
Msg #156841
New Jersey is a spousal rights state. Either you are married or not (no seperation). Spouse is entitled to half the primary residence and must sign docs agreeing to place moprtgage on property and also has right to cancel.
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Reply by DM_FL on 11/2/06 11:01am
Msg #156843
Whether they're single or not isn't our concern. We are there to verify that the person listed on the i.d. is the person that appeared before us. I don't know of any gov't-issued i.d. that lists marital status, so you can't verify that anyway. Whenever the marital status is already pre-printed on the notary certificate, I line through it and initial because I cannot legally identify them that way. The best thing would be to call the title company or signing service that sent you out and include a not with the returned package. It may have been better to call while at the table, but it's too late for that now. The borrower/signer is responsible for the statements made in whatever documents they sign.
***Disclaimer*** I am not a licensed attorney. The information above is my informed opinion based on the notary laws in my state and should not be construed as legal advice.
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Reply by jlissem on 11/2/06 11:07am
Msg #156845
It better be your concern in N.J., if you have been told that the party is married.
If they lie to you it is not up to you to determine the truth BUT you were told it is a lie.
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Reply by DM_FL on 11/2/06 11:13am
Msg #156848
According to what was stated, he was told after the fact. The notarization was already complete by the time he knew. What would you suggest he do other than notify those who need to know?
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Reply by Traveling2U on 11/2/06 11:21am
Msg #156851
the company who created the loan did know I bet you
Had she not opened her mouth the notary wouldn't of known but when she acknowledged she was married...now the notary know as a fact and personally the money I would make I would return the documents with lines drawn through it.
I would walk not run the lady is married its that simple. Go get a divorce then go get a loan
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Reply by MelissaCT on 11/2/06 5:21pm
Msg #156943
"go get a divorce, then go get a loan"
Similar situation in my family -- when someone's MIA, it's not very easy to just "go get a divorce". You have to prove that the person deserted the marriage & there is a time period for waiting, I believe. I'm sure it's different in each state.
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Reply by MelissaCT on 11/2/06 5:28pm
Msg #156944
Divorce could take 6 months
to be finalized. What if the house was purchased with 2 incomes & now there's only 1, hence the refinance.
I think the issue is more about when the marital status was disclosed to the notary. If before the act was performed, then the notarization was "fraudulent". If after, then the notarization was "legal" but supplemental information after the fact was presented.
Document everything.
This is just me thinking out loud, per se. Not to be mistaken for advice of any kind.
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Reply by Traveling2U on 11/2/06 11:11am
Msg #156846
Personally, I wouldn't return them with my signature and stamp. I'm sure they knew she was married. By the way she is a married women unless she can prove other wise. In my opinion she told you the truth. Now you knowingly this lady isn't single. In my opinion its as bout as bad as back dating to me.
I would hate to see you down the road trying to defend your self when she testify that she told you she was married but she consider herself signal because she can't find her husband. I wouldn't be shock that she knows where he is but don't want him to know her business.
Shame of the person who created this loan I think God was looking over you. Call the SOS I sure they will tell you she is a married women but seprated. She should had handled her business before getting into a loan. In CA its a community state he would have dibs on that property ;-D
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Reply by Poppy on 11/2/06 11:21am
Msg #156850
She said her attorney said she was single....
How do we know she is not? There may be a law regarding abandonment how are we supposed to know the legal status of her marriage?
I think we are asking for trouble if we decide that we know who is telling the truth and who is not.
I would note it in my journal and send a note with the file. Beyond that I think you would be over stepping.... JMO not legal advice...
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Reply by Poppy on 11/2/06 11:26am
Msg #156852
Re: She said her attorney said she was single....
And if we find out the next day and we still have the paperwork should we cross out the notarization? How about a week later.
I don't know... I think we would be really over stepping....
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Reply by Traveling2U on 11/2/06 11:29am
Msg #156854
Re: She said her attorney said she was single....
That attorney gave her bad advice and I'm not an attorney but been married and divorced and remarried. The lady need to file for a divorce if she doesn't know if he dead or alive there's a recourse I think you have to put it in a local paper.
The lady should know if she is married or not the reason I believe the lender know she is because they could had requested proof just like when they ask for a state ID all they want is that loan to close so they can get their commission.
Too funny she could get a divorce for under $400.00 now days online
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Reply by Poppy on 11/2/06 12:33pm
Msg #156863
Yes, but the difference between her attorney and us is
her attorney can be sued for giving bad advice (maybe, maybe not) but we can and more than likely will be sued for giving any advice...
I guess this would be a good question for the SOS...
I don't recall anything in CA handbook discussing destroying a notarial certificate once the notarial act has been completed but I am curious if that would be an additional liability here. Guess I'll have to look through the old handbook and freshen up those brain cells...
Interesting question.... Thanks for posting it and thanks for the input everyone... It's good to hear/read other viewpoints...
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Reply by Traveling2U on 11/2/06 1:49pm
Msg #156888
Re: Yes, but the difference between her attorney and us is
No matter what her attorney said, she knew and acknowledged it to the notary it don't get no better than that ;-D the lender should asked for the document. I really believe they didn't want them because she told them well I'm kinda of married ;-D yea right
what bothers me when a professional knowing on the outset and putting it on a notary to carry out their deed. I hope if I'm in this situation I have a borrower that acknowledge the truth
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Reply by Poppy on 11/2/06 2:16pm
Msg #156902
Re: Yes, but the difference between her attorney and us is
I hear you Traveling2U, but it seems to me in this case the truth is questionable at best. I don't have enough information on her marriage/separation/divorce or what ever the case may be. I don't know what the status of the title to the home is (was it her sole and separate property prior to the marriage (which could have been a one day quicky marriage in Vegas for all I know) Seems to me she is also unsure since she consulted an attorney. Perhaps she was married for a short time and hubby left, as I said before I have no idea of the law regarding what constitutes a legal marriage/divorce. Perhaps she was never legally married. I have no idea what went into an attorney telling her she is single or if an attorney even really told her she is single. She is however swearing to the truthfulness of her statements, if I'm going to call her a liar and refuse to notarize... I'd better know that to be the truth. JMO...
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Reply by Traveling2U on 11/2/06 10:32pm
Msg #156980
Re: Yes, but the difference between her attorney and us is
I wouldn't call her a liar but I would do the the signing if I was told by the borrower. Its my personal opinion I think if you are married if anyone would know it would be her.
As many games are being played with these loans. I would say anything to her the person that hired me I would explain my concerns in writing and like many have said document it in my journal and call the SOS so I'll know in the future.
I would glady pass on this one personally. I respect everyone comments it provides a good overview one more than one opinion how they would handle it.
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Reply by Kate/CA on 11/2/06 12:35pm
Msg #156864
I would return the docs, if you don't there maybe some liability there. Add a note if you want.
Your job was to ID and notarize docs. If you have a journal, document, document, document.
That could be used in a court of law if it came to that.
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Reply by SueW/Tn on 11/2/06 12:40pm
Msg #156868
Agreeing with Kate on this one
Our job is to notarize signatures, it is not our responsibility to delve into the validity of the information within the doc. I most definitely would let Title know the information the BO voluntairly disclosed, type up a memo and enclose with docs as well as notify the SS AND keep a copy for myself and document all over my journal NOW while the details are fresh.
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Reply by lenelle/FL on 11/2/06 12:58pm
Msg #156871
Wow, that is tough, however, remember that you are there to notarize a signature not a document. As long as she can produce ID that she is that person, then you have done your job. As previously stated, document as much as possible on this one! JMO.
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Reply by NCsignguy on 11/2/06 2:25pm
Msg #156908
Resolution
Thanks for all your input. Just to follow up I was doing a singing in NC for a loan in NJ, borrower claimed to be single on a document then I notarized it. Then another document appeared never married, divorced, or widowed. She went into a discussion on how she was abandoned by her husband 9 months ago. She and her attorney have never been able to contact him. I don’t think he was a citizen and maybe back in his home country. She told me her lawyer had told her in the case of abandonment she would be considered single. I called the TC, (after hours) this question seemed to be a little out of her league she asked me to finish the closing and we will speak in the morning. As of this morning they wanted me to drop docs and they seemed confused about the situation themselves saying the L/O never said she was married and a general what happened? (Borrower stated L/O knew the entire background, was the major reason she had to take out this sub prime loan). That is when I posted to notary rotary. After posting I spoke to T/C attorney. The resolution was I could cross out any notarization claiming that she was single, I made a copy of the crossed out notarization for my records. They sent me an email which I have saved as well, the company has also told me my fee will be met. From what I can interpret from the attorney (if it was an attorney) they wanted to CYA (cover [e-mail address].). He seemed serious about the situation and I don’t think he thinks loan will even fund and was also on the phone with Loan Company when we were finishing up our conversation. I will keep you posted
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Reply by Poppy on 11/2/06 2:29pm
Msg #156910
Thanks for the update NC... Very interesting... n/m
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Reply by Stamper_WI on 11/2/06 4:15pm
Msg #156933
NCSignguy
Is NC a dowager/ marital law state?
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Reply by MelissaCT on 11/2/06 5:31pm
Msg #156945
It was NJ property, NC recording laws don't apply n/m
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Reply by MikeC/NY on 11/2/06 7:55pm
Msg #156964
Re: Resolution
NJ divorce law establishes abandonment as grounds for a divorce, but it has to be abandonment for more than a year - so it seems she's three months shy of being able to even file for divorce. Plus, it's merely grounds for the divorce action and would have to be proved in court. Wonder what kind of lawyer she has...
I'm curious whether the document required a jurat or just an acknowledgement. If she lied to you under oath, she may potentially have more problems other than the loan not funding...
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Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/3/06 10:31am
Msg #157038
Always love when there's follow-up - THANKS
I had this situation when I worked inside. MI property (spousal state), woman told mtg broker L/O the full story, he told her to just put herself down as "single" and keep quiet; loan was then brokered to us (Lender), and there was no record of the husband on the chain-of-title, or CR, so ... no way we'd know.
Call from the closer during signing - woman volunteered "well, TECHNICALLY I guess I'm married, but haven't seen him in years, no clue where he is, so I don't consider myself REALLY married."
Ix-nay on the loan. You feel bad for people in these situations, but ... what does Lender have, her WORD that she doesn't know where he is?? Either married, or not married - no gray areas allowed.
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Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 11/2/06 4:55pm
Msg #156937
My Opinion Is...
...there's no such thing as an "un-notarization". If you've done your job properly as a Notary; i.e. identifying the signer, placing them under oath, having them sign before you, placing your seal on the Notary certificate...then it's a done deal. Uncovering an error, misstated fact, or falsehood AFTER placing your seal on the document doesn't alter one bit what transpired seconds before. That notarial act is now "history" & to attempt to revise it by crossing out your seal only complicates the matter even more. Just because you still have the document & your Notary certificate in front of you doesn't make it OK to attempt to make the notarial act "go away". Having said that, I also believe a Notary has an obligation to make the company which hired you aware of what you've uncovered in the way of an error or bald faced lie. Let them take it from there & in my opinion this doesn't mean letting them coerce you into doing something which your state's Notary statutes may not allow. Our MO SOS Notary Commission Officer is of the same opinion as I had the occasion to call her this afternoon on another matter. Her conclusion was that it's "irrelevant" from a Notary Public perspective as to what transpires after the notarial act is "satisfactorily completed". You should never (at least in Missouri) cross out your seal after the act is done. I believe a phone call to the NC Secretary of State's office (if that's the branch of government in NC responsible for Notaries Public) would have been a wise thing to do.
JMHO & written from the perspective of a Notary Public in Missouri. It's NOT intended to be legal advice.
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Reply by Charm_AL on 11/2/06 7:05pm
Msg #156957
Re: My Opinion Is...
I don't know Dennis, if you complete the act and find out (right after) that it is a false signing, I don't know/think that I'd want to send it in anyway at whoever's discretion to determine whether it was legal or not, at that point it's out of you hands... In this case the notary found out that the signer signed documents knowing that they were in fact incorrect.
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Reply by Jon on 11/2/06 8:16pm
Msg #156966
Re: My Opinion Is...
I agree completely with Dennis. The notarial act was completed. What if you found out after you dropped the docs? Do you then go to the TC and demand that they return the docs to you so you can "undo" the notarization? The burden of proof is on the signer, they are the ones who signed under oath. I would make a note in my journal so I would have a memory aid for any future questions regarding the signing.
For those that are too ignorant to figure it out by themselves(you know your initials), this is only my opinion.
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Reply by SueW/Tn on 11/2/06 8:23pm
Msg #156968
wow...you're a real sweetheart...I vote for you to be king n/m
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Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/2/06 9:26pm
Msg #156976
My perspective, naturally, is as a CA notary and only my opinion, BUT... What proof did she give you for her current capacity? You only have her word for her status and what she said her attorney said. Which statement is right? How much of what she said is accurate? Do you REALLY know? Somewhere there appears to be a conflict, but you have no evidence to support either possibility beyond what she told you *after* you notarized the document. And it's not your responsibility to make that determination. (That may be why the state of California prohibits us from notarizing any capacity, regardless of where the document is to be filed.) Once you have advised your client, then it is up to them to research it.
If you had personal knowledge or concrete evidence that something in a document was false (beyond one stranger's statement), then I think it would be a different story. Short of that, I think you did the right thing. I also agree with those who said to notify the client and to document it in your journal, but I would try not to lose any sleep over it. (Easier said than done, I know, 'cause I've been in a similar situation, but I think it's to your credit that you care about it being right!) Again, this is jmo - without knowledge of your state's notary laws.
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Reply by David Kral on 11/3/06 1:45am
Msg #156997
Call your Secretary of State
Call your Secretary of State or whomever licenses you. If they tell you to cross out your stamp, then do it.
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