Posted by Susan Fischer on 11/15/06 10:28pm
Msg #160403

Nazi Names, an observation...

Particular Middle Names, an observation…

Earlier this month there was some discussion about middle names, and I wanted to relate a possible revelation. Several years ago, an elderly Slavic borrower was physically upset at the sight of his full name, that being first, middle, and last, on the documents, and believed he could not sign it within his signature, since he had not used or referred to his middle name in his lifetime of over 90 years. He literally roared asking, "Ver dey get dis name?” I was new. And tenderly explained that he had to sign as his name was printed, and I hoped it would not be too difficult. He laboriously complied, but I could see he was in pain. I remember thinking, whomever he was named after must have been the spawn of the devil!

This month, I signed with a Yugoslavian born woman who also balked at the use of her middle name, explaining that when she was born, children’s names must be chosen from Hitler’s ‘favorite names’ list, and that her mother committed treason by adding ‘Anna’ before the Official Name. She has not been able, to this day, to officially discard this name.

Now the old man’s pain becomes clear.

Reply by LkArrowhd/CA on 11/15/06 10:41pm
Msg #160404

Re: Nazi Names, an observation...Thanks Susan, very

interesting....

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/15/06 10:55pm
Msg #160406

Re: Nazi Names, an observation...Thanks Susan, very

I'm reminded of a recent post about a young lady who felt uncomfortable interacting with her borrowers. Sometimes when we listen, we can build on connections and understandings. And, perhaps, in this industry, we can support the "deletion" of an unwanted name by being aware. The temerity of lenders/title companies to assume someone's legal name is demonstrated again and again by all manner of borrowers. IMHO, people's legal names should be honored, not simply established by identies garnered from credit reports, or ?.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 11/15/06 10:56pm
Msg #160407

It is always a mistake

to make assumptions about such personal things as a name - especially in the greatest generation.

I see, just in general life, how someone is sized up (very quickly) as being 'this' or 'that', what they wear, how they speak - basically, the camoflauge. The most damaging of those (foolish) assumptions can label a person something that they aren't, and others follow suite via gossip. That to me? It's a Sin.

And with most things involving assumption? Count on it being negative.

Your example is perfect.

Now, after that depressing thought...there are alwas those free spirits and con artists that make us believe in the "best". A bright light in a dreary world are these free spirits/con artists. In some lives? It doesn't matter whether "free" or "con". It's just best for us all to believe in....The Best.

End of philosophical moment.

Now dammit, show me who won Dancing with the Stars, or I'm sending in a freakin bomb threat.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/15/06 10:59pm
Msg #160410

Re: It is always a mistake


dance...If you're going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance...

Reply by TitleGalCA on 11/15/06 11:05pm
Msg #160412

A Hallmark Card thought - very nice. n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/15/06 11:14pm
Msg #160414

Re: A Hallmark Card thought - very nice.

dance...like nobody's watching

Reply by TitleGalCA on 11/15/06 11:25pm
Msg #160416

Sadly - if no one is watching? The ice could break

and you'd drown. I'd rather be watched - much safer that way.

Besides...what's your point? A great post about someone who had reason to not expose his history, a person who is so honorable. A person who has suffered.

I'm just suggesting that those individuals have honor and integrity past what anyone below 50 doesn't have, and no one should make assumptions about such...people or circumstances.

Guess I lost you...sorry!

Reply by Anon on 11/15/06 11:38pm
Msg #160422

Re: Sadly - if no one is watching? The ice could break

What assumptions ?

Reply by TitleGalCA on 11/15/06 11:45pm
Msg #160425

It's over your head, Anon. See what's on "Nick at Night" n/m

Reply by Anon on 11/16/06 1:19am
Msg #160440

Re: Sadly - if no one is watching? The ice could break

Ya, sure, you betcha, the ice could break. But that's beside the point. The point is to be who you are, to take the risk of identification, of being found out. The risk of ourselves. The dance of life.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/16/06 12:05am
Msg #160429

Re: It is always a mistake

I liked your philosophical moment...

"I see, just in general life, how someone is sized up (very quickly) as being 'this' or 'that', what they wear, how they speak - basically, the camoflauge. The most damaging of those (foolish) assumptions can label a person something that they aren't, and others follow suite via gossip. That to me? It's a Sin.

And with most things involving assumption? Count on it being negative."

Very true. Words worth taking to heart and something I will try to keep in mind as I post here and elsewhere. I guess we could ALL use an attitude adjustment from time to time...

(BTW, did your guy win tonight? I'm glad I didn't have to choose!!)

Reply by TitleGalCA on 11/16/06 12:45am
Msg #160434

Ach, it didn't matter Janet =) about "dancing"

I suppose it is my profession and all the phony-baloney stuff. Every day I do try my best to be honest, approachable, and stay within the margins of PC, without selling out.

It's the selling out part that I struggle with. Just can't do it. People should never be judged by their cover...or the "camoflauge".

It is what that's inside that counts. Sometimes, we don't know that until our individual "cups" are tipped.

Have a good night - you are such a credit here on NR.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 11/15/06 11:40pm
Msg #160424

In a perfect (notary) world , the name on the dox.....

should match the name under which they took title.
The deed conveying title to them should have been
in the name that that gave the seller as to how they
wished to hold title to the PIQ
The mortgage that they signed when they purchased should
have matched the ID that they showed the NP who was
present when they purchased
The ID that they have should stiill be in that same name
(exception if name changed after purchase such as due to a marriage)
The LO should find out how they hold title near the beginning
of the loan process and what their ID states their name to be,
and the dox should be drawn in that name.
If this happened our job would be much easier, but then
they wouldn't need smart people like us notroters.
that name.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/15/06 11:55pm
Msg #160428

Re: In a perfect (notary) world , the name on the dox.....

So true. But what about a name change that wasn't a result of , say, a marriage? What if the name changed just because. Once of my signings dealt with a single name borrower. She went to local court and changed her name to, say, 'Sara.' It took her over a year to convince a lender/title co, that every document that bore her name had better read 'Sara.' Sara's birth certificate would not match, but her driver's license did. The problem with my examples is that those folks weren't born here, but they have histories, and there ought to be a way for our system to allow them to shed their Hitler names. That's all.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 11/16/06 12:15am
Msg #160430

I hear ya. I was talking to Madonna the other day ( she ....

wanted my opinion as to if the adoption was a good idea.
Since she is usually too wacked out to drive, she does not have
a DL, so it is not really an issue.
Prince then joined the conversation and complained that
he could not get DMV to squeeze "The artist formerly known as Prince"
on to his DL. They wanted to abbreviate it as "Nut Case"
I'm going to bed. Nighty nite

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/16/06 1:05am
Msg #160437

Re: I hear ya. I was talking to Madonna the other day ( she ....

I don't think you hear me at all.

Reply by AAA Nevada Closers - Signing Department on 11/16/06 3:00am
Msg #160444

rofl! Hilarious! n/m

Reply by AAA Nevada Closers - Signing Department on 11/16/06 2:51am
Msg #160443

Very interesting post!

I do want to offer this: I am Russian Orthodox and after reading your post, it got me to wondering. I sort of "know' the Slavic mind pretty well, because I am Orthodox, and of course, I cannot know what was in that man's heart...naturally. But! I can hazard this guess:

Without knowing what his name actually was/is, (because you didn't mention)

If he was in his 90's, that would mean that his parents might have been part of the Bolshevik Revolution on EITHER SIDE OF IT. At that time, many religious people were actively persecuted. Traditionally, among the Slavic people, who were primarily either a) Jewish or b) Eastern Orthodox Christians, this could have meant a couple of things....to explain:

A. If he was Jewish: The Bolsheviks were death on Jewish religion. But they welcomed the Jewish "intelligentsia". That is to say, there were many Jewish philosophers involved with the Bolshevik party. It is possible, if this man was Jewish, that his "name", the one he seemed upset about, was a "religious" or Biblical name. If he was an "atheist" or 'agnostic' Jew, he might have been uncomfortable recognizing such a "religious" label.

B. If he was Eastern Orthodox Christian: These folks were the majority and got the brunt of the entire political hammer. Because the Tsar and the royal family were all Orthodox, any Orthodox Christians were quickly squashed/threatened/otherwise persecuted. If this man was Orthodox, then his "middle name" was absolutely certainly a religious one. In the Eastern Orthodox world, a person's "first name" is always the name of a "Saint". The middle name is always the first name of a beloved ancestor/grandparent, also (naturally) a Saint's name. The last name is a "patronym". That is if you're a male, it will literally mean "son of So And So..." Like "Petrovich"...meaning "Son of Peter". So in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, all THREE names are religious names. But the middle name is always the name of a "family saint" (little s. Not "cannonized" or anything but especially revered within the family. ) In these cases, particulalry after the Revolution, people gave their children middle names after people in their families that they considered 'martyrs for the faith'.

C. If his parents were "atheists" as in part of the active Bolshevik party, then his "middle name" or the name he was uncomfortable with, would have been someone "famous". Such as Lenin. Or Trotsky. Or one of those guys. In this case, perhaps he did not agree with his parents political leanings, and was upset to be reminded that he was named for an "atheist".

In the Slavic countries, the "enemy" is NOT religion. It is atheism in its most virulent form: that which seeks to control the beliefs of "believers" of any stripe. In this scenario, the man might be rejecting a political philosopher for which he might have been named. Exampel: There is a Russian man I know who is deeply Christian. He is named "Vladimir". And although that is a legitimate "Christian" name (for a Russian born saint), he is reminded that this was the first name of Lenin. Vladimir Ilyich Lenin.

Anyway, none of what I've written matters at all....but your post is well taken and I just got to thinking about it and thought I would share what little I know about the Slavic culture and the whole name thing....

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/16/06 3:05am
Msg #160446

Thank you for your insights. Had I been awake, I might have asked about his fears. He was truly afraid and angry. I likened his repulsion to that of the woman who confided in possessing a name on Hitler's List of Favorite Names. Now I see that there could be many reasons for his repsonse. Oh, to be a fly on the wall of his memories.

Reply by AAA Nevada Closers - Signing Department on 11/16/06 3:18am
Msg #160447

I agree....(to be a fly ont he wall...).

I love signing with elderly people. I take way too long because I love to listen to their stories!
I enjoyed your "philosophy". You are a very nice lady and I wish you much success.
You are sensitive and that's something that actually counts in this business....in the long run, you will outlast many. Nazdrovye (Cheers...to your health...long life....something like that in Russian...rendered in English, it looks wierd but I mean it from my heart.)

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/16/06 12:12pm
Msg #160554

Re: Yes, the wonderful stories...Nazdrovye! n/m

Reply by james wiseman on 11/17/06 6:08pm
Msg #160895

Ok I am not sure why everyone says they have to sign as their name is printed this is not true you can sign anyway you want it is your signature, it does not even have to be recognizable as long as it is a proven signatureIE one that is on their DL or on the passport.
Making someone sign a signature that is not what they use is crazy!
I am not sure but perhaps even a savy lawyer could have the documents proven to be no good since it was not the proper legal signature used by the person on every other legally identifing document, especially if they died soon after and someone who was less than honest wanted to steal the property back saying they never sold it to this person, and then you may get dragged into court over someone else being a greedy schmuck.
Just saying...