Posted by Larry/Ca on 10/28/06 2:21am
Msg #155695

Married woman but sole owner ....

as her separated husband, living elsewhere, had grant deeded the property to her on the last refinance. This refi they wanted the husband to sign another grant deed giving her sole ownership again. The estranged hubby was not at the signing and she didn't want him to have anything to do with this refi. The deed is already in her name as sole owner. My question is, do they always require a new grant from the hubby every refi when the couple is still legally mairred?

Reply by kate_nortca on 10/28/06 8:01am
Msg #155713

Not in my experience, no. I am married and living with my husband but listed as the sole owner of our house. I refinanced the house this summer and there was no Grant Deed involved just a new Deed of Trust.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/28/06 9:23am
Msg #155723

Re: Married woman but sole owner .... Good question, Larry!

Larry, before anyone gets nutty and tells you that you don't need to know this to be a notary signing agent, I'll just state for the record that we all know that you are not going to be learning this so you can advise anyone about anything.

I think this is a really good question for someone who wants to learn about our business. It just helps to know why these documents float around in our packages sometimes.

There's all kind of ways to handle the spouse thing to get them off and onto the title of a piece of property.

Texas talking here...my experience:

If the separated husband was not "separated" and was living with her, and he called the property his homestead, they'd put a signature line on the dot for him, as well as the debts affidavit, til, rtc and the other various and sundry items like the compliance agreement.

Plain vanilla just like in *most" cases you are used to doing with married couples who are borrowing money with only one on the note.

But, I have seen it when newly married couples with pre-nups did this during a refi. The lender might require a deed like you describe just to ensure that the non-owning spouse was not doing something to cloud the title.

Again, talking in Texas terms, we don't have a "grant" deed or a quitclaim deed. We have special warranty deeds, or warranty deeds, or general warranty deeds. In this case I have seen a special warranty deed used to "deed" over any possible interest in the house and then "warranting" that the estranged spouse has not encumbered or clouded the title.

My personal experience:

When my Ex-husband remodeled his home (his sole and separate property by inheritance) ten years after I lived in the home, lender/title required me to sign a special warranty deed for them to get financing.

When they remodeled again, I yet again signed a special warranty deed. And, when they sold it...I yet again signed off.

The first two times was lender/title. Probably was easier in our case to have me sign the deed that second time than to research it...I dunno exactly, but maybe TG or Renee will comment.

The last time was b/c it was purchased by a very savvy RE person and he did not want any clouds on his property title for various reasons going back to the fact it was an inherited property.

Heck, if I wanted to, I could sign another one today and all it would be doing is deeding any interest (which I never had) back to the Ex, plus warranting I never put a lien against it. It would be meaningless which I think various deeds are sometimes such as in the case of my Ex and his house.

But in my understanding, they just give a tiny bit of reinforcement to the title company that they can issue title insurance and that the estranged spouse is not going to cry foul.

I also figure that it's possible that if I had been an Ex-wife from H, they would have just figured out a way around me sign anything. Again, I have seen this worked around in a personal experience--not "me" as ex from H tho!

I hope those examples help. And, by the way...I think your CA grant deeds are similar to our warranty deeds. Hopefully the real title gurus will post another answer. Good question, Larry...and one I will also learn from through responses.

Disclaimer - This was typed by a drunken rodeo clown who don't know squat about notary stuff or deeds.

Reply by cassiewi on 10/28/06 9:32am
Msg #155727

Re: Married woman but sole owner .... Good question, Larry!

"drunken rodeo clown" LOL wow Brenda, you must lead some kind of crazy Texas life out there.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/28/06 9:44am
Msg #155730

Re: Married woman but sole owner .... cassiewi

It's my way of trying to get the point across that people on the 'net can lie/pretend they are someone they are not. They give false info, pretend they know things they do not, and sometimes they think they know but they don't.

Blah, blah, blah...and, never trust people on the forum to give you answers that are critical to your work. Use their info as a starting point for research only.

I lied. I am not a rodeo clown...and I have not been drinking this morning.

Everyone...have a great day! It's gorgeous in Texas! Got lots of company on the way...bridal shower...engagement party this weekend. Great family time planned.

Reply by cassiewi on 10/28/06 10:02am
Msg #155734

Re: Married woman but sole owner .... cassiewi

I understood you, I was trying to be funny, guess I should have tried harder, lol. Have a great weekend.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/28/06 11:08am
Msg #155759

the rodeo clowns hey baby, they pick me up from the ground

Thanks for the 'brain worm de jour', I LOVE this song (Jack Johnson, fyi) ...

I don't know jack (sorry) about CA, I think CA has some very progressive laws that not many other states echo.

In my non-legal, low-life cubicled past experience - what was explained to me by the legal guys I dealt with was that here in MI, a married person's title rights could not be permanently signed away by any means that would withstand a divorce judge's counter determination. In effect, if a married person signs a Deed granting implied or known title rights to the spouse - if that married person later divorces the spouse and attempts to claim any rights to that same title, that Deed can be over-riden by the judge. THIS IS COMPLETE HERESAY. I am not a rodeo clown, I only sing songs about them.

In practice - in MI, a married person can PURCHASE as "sole & separate", and deed will vest them alone on the deed as "married person, as sole and separate property." All deeds and mortgages in MI must state a person's marital status (married, unmarried/single)

Now, when they either encumber that title by refinancing, or they sell it - there is but one question asked: Are you married? Married - both sign (either another QC, or the actual Mtg). No if's, and's or but's. Legally separated? Still married, then. Homestead is regardless - if one lives in Alaska, again the question is "Great. Are you married? He/she signs."

I am not a lawyer, never have been, never will be, and my credibility might be questionable since I know all the words to a song about rodeo clowns, hey baby, they pick me up from the ground ....

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/28/06 12:30pm
Msg #155783

You got it Brenda!

In Clifornia the "Grant" deed according to State law has the "Warrantees" implied by law while the quitcalim deed carries no warrantees whatsoever. Having been in the real estate business many years ago outside of California I am familiar with a lot of the other situations. California in part becasueof the Californian Association of Realtors and the fact that buiding and real estate have been such a huge part of our economy has streamlined some of the older concepts to facilitate the ease of transaction.

Reply by John_NorCal on 10/28/06 9:53am
Msg #155731

My personal opinion is that this is a CYA on the part of the title company or possibly the lender due to our community property laws. Maybe Title Gal will post a more definitive answer.

And this was not typed by a drunken rodeo clown!

Reply by Poppy on 10/28/06 10:15am
Msg #155738

I would think you would see a quit claim deed vs. a grant

deed...
But I'm not speaking from any expert title knowledge. So I too am waiting for Titlegal...

Reply by janCA on 10/28/06 10:37am
Msg #155746

Always learning in this job.

I'm doing a signing this morning where husband is listed on title as sole and separate property. Wife has never signed any loan docs but in this case she will be. I asked title about this and their reply was, "that the wife sign security instruments or produce a grant deed relinquishing property rights to husband, BUT it has to be current, within 12 months.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 10/29/06 1:42am
Msg #155906

No, John is not a drunken Rodeo Cowboy

and yes, the Title Company does do the CYA thing. They have to. They are insuring the refi and that the entity that owns the property does so quite well by the documents that have recorded.

Charles is right in that a quitclaim deed grants "whatever" interest a spouse has in the property and a grant deed grants "true" interest. However, many use the wrong deed....does that make their interest less or more? No.

Honestly, it doesn't matter because at the end of the day? A good attorney and the judge could mess up the title company real good, in spite of their normal procedure, that has worked so well in the past; and the intent of the quitclaim or grant deed.

In the last analysis? Although you can be sure that a title company is recording the best documents in a transaction (because they are on the line and have waaaaaaaay more experience than you as SA) any judge, should the transaction get challenged in a court of law, can upset everyone's applecart.

Renee/MI wins, hands down. However - know this. If your title company is telling you they need a "grant deed" vs. a "Quit Claim Deed" or vise versa....comply and don't utter a peep. It's NOT your issue as a signing agent. It IS THEIR ISSUE as they are insuring the transaction.

Sheesh. I've been to a Halloween party tonight and have this pleasant little buzz...If y'all want my advice you also have to read the rest......

My Chachi won the Costume prize. Yep.....the Dog did me proud. Was well-behaved, wore his cape and hat well and didn't jump on small children or eat the hamburgers uninvited. A Champ. God, I'm so proud. This is better than kids, I swear. Did the kids give me awards at a year old? No. Did they wear costumes well at a year old? No. Did they sit quietly while Mom flirted and drank wine with the neighbors? No.

The Dog wins, hands down. I'll put the Dog vs. the Judge any damn day of the week. That's where my money is.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/28/06 12:23pm
Msg #155779

California is still a community property state and I suspect that the lender is just covering themselves so that nothing happened in the intervening years that could construe the husband as having an interest. A grant deed has an implied warranty of legal ownership attached to it in California a quit claim deed has no warranties. all a quitclaim deed does is grants whatever interest the grantee regardless of whether or not he has any. The grant teed implies that the grantee does have an ownership interest and and is granting it making the grantor a holder in due course.

Reply by Pamela on 10/28/06 12:46pm
Msg #155791

Charles, Re: Married woman but sole owner ....

If you haven't already done so,
have you thought about teaching real estate courses
at a local college?

Pam

Reply by Poppy on 10/30/06 8:55am
Msg #156104

Thanks all.. As always I enjoy learning that little

something extra everyday... Sometimes what you think you know is not ALL you should know... THANKS AGAIN! "smiles" Poppy