Posted by jlissem on 10/29/06 4:48pm
Msg #156028

Notary Public or Signing AGENT


Notaries are a disinerested commissioned officers who serves the citizens in their state. They
have no financial intertest in the transaction. They identify the client and determine that they understand the nature of documents being notarized.
An Agent is defined below.
Who do you represent?

Agent (law)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An Agent in Commercial Law is a person who is authorised to act on behalf of another (called the Principal) to create a legal relationship with a Third Party. Agency law deals with the tripartite relationship between:

Agents and Principals;
Agents and the Third Parties with whom they deal on their Principals' behalf; and
Principals and the Third Parties when the Agents deal on their behalf.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/29/06 5:07pm
Msg #156032

Re:There are 3 types

There are three broad classes of Agent:

Universal Agents hold broad authority to act on behalf of the Principal, e.g. they may hold a power of attorney (also known as a mandate in civil law jurisdictions) or have a professional relationship, say, as lawyer and client.
General Agents hold a more limited authority to conduct a series of transactions over a continuous period of time; and
Special Agents are authorised to conduct either only a single transaction or a specified series of transactions over a limited period of time.

Or the general definition - the participant of a situation that carries out an action.

I submit that Special Agent would apply to the signing agent.

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/29/06 5:09pm
Msg #156033

As a real estate broker, agent & agency had a whole 'nother meaning to me, too, Jlissem. I had a hard time even saying Notary Signing AGENT!!!! It took a while to get over it, but I did come to accept the word as meaning absolutely nothing whatsoever in the context of what we do. They have to call us something, and Notary Signing Agent is a lot better than some of the names they could use, hey? Seems the east coast favors Closing Agent or Closers... and maybe you've wondered why they sometimes want you to sign where it says Settlement Agent. Best advice I can give you is get over it. And always change Closing or Settlement Agent to Notary if they want you to sign someplace as something.

Reply by Stamper_WI on 10/29/06 5:46pm
Msg #156037

I think our agency is limited as a representative to either party. I do not take responsibility for the contents of the documents nor do I explain them. I know where the information is held within the context of the documents and can point them out or even read it to the borrower. I am duty bound as a notary to ensure that the borrowers understand what they are signing first and foremost.
I do incure expenses in signing documents and, as a professional signing agent, I have value. The SOS does not expect that I run around witnessing documents for free. Contract law (which covers the confirmations and even oral contracts to perform a service) and agency law have requirements for compensation for performance. So we are covered for compensation for what we do. I have yet to see in writing on a confirmation that I will not get paid if it does not fund. If I did, I would not do it. That is a job for a notary that notarizes an occaisional documents and leaves the borrowers to shuffle throught the documents on their own.
Those that do not pay the notary signing agent are in violation of contract, agency law and in my opinon as a non lawyer, State notarial law. And Notaries are servants of the public. And they are defrauding a public servant
Keeping it neutral at the signing table is key.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/30/06 1:41am
Msg #156068

"always change Closing or Settlement Agent to Notary ..."

Unless you are in CA (or another state) where notary law states that "A NOTARY PUBLIC SHALL NOT USE THE OFFICIAL SEAL OR THE TITLE OF NOTARY PUBLIC FOR ANY PURPOSE OTHER THAN THE RENDERING OF NOTARIAL SERVICE." [Caps are included in CA notary Handbook.) My personal opinion is that that would include any other documents we would deal with as a "signing agent" that do not get notarized. I always default to signing agent for lack of anything better.

Reply by sue_pa on 10/31/06 7:30am
Msg #156388

I also would not use notary public for anything other than notarizing. I actually have no idea whether or not it's allowed in my state although I'd imagine it's not. Makes no sense to use the title if it's not the act you're performing.

BUT, I also highly dislike and have never used the term 'signing agent' for myself. When I don't like the title pretyped on a form and I know it's for me to sign I cross off and insert 'witness'. Have done this for years and have never heard anything either way.

Reply by Julie/MI on 10/29/06 7:12pm
Msg #156040

I'm whatever the client wants me to be--getting chicken little syndrome over word play annoys me.

I'll let one of the Wikipedia ride with me for a day and we shall see what they can come up with.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/29/06 10:27pm
Msg #156052

The term "notary signing agent" was coined by ......

Susan Pense, who founded the National Association of Signing
Agents nearly 10 years ago. She basically founded the business
that we are in and was instumental is establishing many of the]
NSA practices and procedures that are still in use today.
Many of the "old timers" on this board were original members
of NASA and were instumental in assisting Susan in creating these
practices and procedures. Victoria Rivera , the author of "Just
Point and Sign" was one the the main contributors.
Susan sold the association to NNA a few years back.primarily due to
some family health issues.
Prior to the sale, the NASA message board was discontinued due to
Susan's fear of legal liability as a result of some posters' vicious attacks
on other posters and on third parties, such as signing services, that bordered
on libel . Word to the wise.
I believe that we act as agents on behalf of the lender/tc , with limited
authority to facilitate the delivery and execution of the loan documents.
They have authorized us to act on their belhalf, and are responsible
(along with ourselves, of course) for our wrongful acts done in regard
to handeling, supervisomg the execution of and delivering the loan docs
following execuition.
FIrst and foremost , of course, we are notarys, entrusted as public officials
to perform our notorial duties in accordance with the laws or our respective states.
Our functions are done, primarily, in cojunction with the signing of loan documents.
Hence , i believe the term, Notary Signing Agent , accurately describes our function

Reply by Pamela on 10/29/06 11:25pm
Msg #156066

Bob,

Very interesting reading.
You have shed some insight as to how this all began!

Where can I find more information about Susan Pense,
Victoria Rivera and the NASA? Is there a book or other
reference material?

Victoria Rivera? Isn't she also associated with Victoria Ring?
(Reason for asking, is that I used to receive both of their
newsletters.)


Thanks,

Pam

Reply by DonR_NYC on 10/30/06 12:09am
Msg #156067

NASA of old

As one of those "old timers" from the NASA days I can say without a doubt that Victoria Rivera and Victoria Ring are two very different people and way too often people confuse the two. As for Susan and Scott Pense you could call them the grandparents of this business. If memory serves me correctly (no jokes here please) NASA was the first to offer any type of training, a certification exam and a forum to discuss the issues of the day. Except for a few bad apples, the message board was a place to meet and greet and share experiences and offer support and advice. What we are today is a direct result of NASA. When the Pense's sold the organization to the NNA we thought in the beginning it was a good thing. Boy were we ever wrong! Many of us, however misplaced, thought we were sold down the river by Susan and Scott and it took a long time for many to realize it was a personal and business decision on their part.

A lot of us "old timers", led by Kathy Poston, helped create the Signing Registry that today has the same ideals and beliefs that the old NASA was built on. Today between the SR, here and a few other boards Notary Signing Agents, can gather and learn from each other. It all comes down to which organization you feel is right for you. So in effect NASA is responsible for the different message boards, training sites, etc. that are dedicated to this industry.

Reply by MichiganAl on 10/30/06 2:43am
Msg #156071

V.R. vs V.R.

To my knowledge, they are not associated in any way, shape, or form. Rivera is knowledgeable and well respected in the industry. Ring is, um, er, oh boy, how to say this without getting in trouble. Ring is very successful at promoting herself and her personal financial goals. Other than that, if you can't say something nice...

Reply by Roger_OH on 10/30/06 11:34am
Msg #156148

Re: V.R. vs V.R. - Actually, Al, they WERE...

associated. Not too long ago, , V. Ring was trumpeting her association with V. Rivera,
who she had conducting her teleconferences, fielding 50 State Notary phone calls, and featuring Ms. Rivera's line of training products on the 50 State website. As happened to V. Ring's previous association with NNA, V. Rivera is no longer associated with her. Now Gerri Pierre is the new Executive Director of 50 State Notary, handling day-to-day responsibilities while V. Ring is devoting herself to product development full time.

As noted, both Ms. Rivera and Gerri Pierre are highly respected; I find it curious that both of them would lend their names to a site that has often disseminated incorrect information in the past.

Reply by sue_pa on 10/30/06 6:19am
Msg #156079

Re: The term "notary signing agent" was coined by ......

as another original NASA member from 'way' back when, I say a thank you to Scott & Susan every day. There was basically nothing I didn't know about title work and closing a loan in my state; however, the 'signing' business was totally new to me - still is on some days with what I see going on. The day I listed with NASA my phone started ringing off the hook and it hasn't stopped until this day (still early here so hopefully it will also ring today)

as for the agent part, I believe we are positively an agent of whoever sends us - be it the lender, title company, signing service and each of them in the chain. Looking up definitions of the word agent and attempting to apply them does no good - the only time it will matter is if you are before a judge and then he will determine the scope. On another tangent here - that's one of the reasons I can't believe people sign those ss contracts that absolve the ss of all liability - a TERRIBLE clause for the signing agent.

Reply by David Kral on 10/30/06 4:12am
Msg #156074

Yes. You raise an interesting question. Thus, you should be a mobile courier that prints documents and transports them to the signing. Then notarize for free or what every your state allows. Then return and ship documents. Seems you should get paid your fee for printing and transporting, regardless of what happens. If your fee is soley for notarizing and is success based, seems like you would have a contingent interest in the transaction. Granted some one may have coined the term signing agent, but if other tend to be it has a more traditional meaning you reference above, it could put you on a slippery slope. The borrower's attorney will say "the Notary held himself/herself out to be an "agent".

Reply by jlissem on 10/30/06 6:43am
Msg #156080

Re: The Notary held his/her self to be an "agent"

Exactly
I am an "old timer" that goes back to the NASA days. I am also A NNA "Signing Agent".

On the advise of Counsel I have dropped all reference on my web site, business cards, letterheads etc.
to the word "agent". I stick with Notary Public (specializing in mortgage signings)
I have an real estate agent that represents my interests .
I am and have been a sales agent.
One of my sons has a talent agent.
All these agents represent their principal not the third party being delt with.

Atty.made the same point. If he represented a borrorwer in a dispute, he would suppena the "signing agent". He would push you you down that slippery slope. Would also file with the State to revoke your
Notary Commission. In NJ your supposed to be a disinterested Notary Public. HIS advise "never refer to yourself as an agent when you are in fact functionig as a Notary Public.

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/30/06 7:08am
Msg #156084

Interesting...we can't even agree...

as to whether or not we are, in fact, agents of...somebody. I view my relationship with all of 'em in the same way that an Appraiser does. No appraiser views themself as being an 'agent'...and I don't believe we should either. I am an Independent Contractor and represent myself-only in the completion of a job I've been contracted to do. Stay away from 'agent' as 'agency' is a slippery slope indeed. Wish we had a better name...but Notary Document Signing Facilitator is a mouthful. Hmmmm... agent, used the same way it is in chemistry... as a catalyst. From Widipedia: In linguistics, a grammatical agent is the participant of a situation that carries out the action in this situation.

Reply by Roger_OH on 10/30/06 11:15am
Msg #156132

Another viewpoint...

I see your point, but the fact is that the vast majority of what we do at a signing IS as a signing agent. Only a handful of documents require notarization, and after completing those, the notary part ends and the SA part begins. It doesn't require a notary commission to generally explain an RTC, TIL, or most of the other docs in the package. Nor is a commission required to fax back docs, pick up checks, or act as the courier to receive and return the docs. For those things, we ARE accountable to the lender/TC.

I think an attorney would be hard pressed to try and revoke my commission because I ensured, for example the non-notary function of the RTC having the right dates.