Posted by Pierces Notary Services on 10/25/06 7:01pm
Msg #155029

reviewing docs ahead of time w/borrower

How many of you go through the docs and if you notice that it is an ARM or there is a balloon payment you call them before going to the closing? I have many times more than I can imagine get to the borrower's house and they say that's not right, it's supposed to be fixed and then I have wasted my time and theirs. I just had one tonight, it was a 1st and 2nd and here it is almost 8:00 p.m and I want to make sure the borrower is aware of it before I make a trip for nothing because I have to get up early in the morning for work. The loan officer just called me and told me that I was not supposed to disclose that to them ahead of time. I told th em find another notary because I'm not doing it.

Reply by Barbara O on 10/25/06 7:11pm
Msg #155034

You aren't supposed to go over the details of the loan with the borrower over the phone. Not only can you not be sure of a person's identity over the phone, but also, if there is a discrepancy with the loan, sometimes the loan officers can talk them through it on the phone during the signing and still "save" the closing instead of a redraw. Also, if you are calling them to "make sure they really want an ARM" you are (however unintentionally) influencing them by suggesting that they might not want an ARM. You can point it out at the closing when you get to that page, but other than that it really isnt our business what they are doing with their loan. I cringe when I see interest rates of 11% or ARM that say it will go up to a ridiculous amount, but that is not my business or my job to speak with them about it.

Reply by Pierces Notary Services on 10/25/06 7:13pm
Msg #155036

I realize what you are saying and that's true - I shouldn't but I have seen other notaries saying they do...I live in a very rural area and many times it takes me a long time to get to the borrower to just turn around and go home because they got something they didn't want.

Reply by Barbara O on 10/25/06 7:20pm
Msg #155041

I feel your pain with the driving. I myself am in a very rural area and alot of time I am driving 50-100 miles. It still is not our place to go over any terms of the loan except to get directions, confirm a time, make sure they have copies of their drivers license and a cashiers check if one is required. That's it, end of story. Honestly, I would rather go there and still be paid for a no sign than to kill any chance of payment before I step out the door.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 10/25/06 9:02pm
Msg #155052

SA's... if you want business... don't do this!

There is a whole lot that goes into a loan above and beyond what the borrower 'wants'. At signer's end.. we cannot possibly understand the situation that brought them to this point. LTV, DTI, Mortgage Lates, Charge-offs, Not enough credit history, manufactured vs. site built, REO's, primary-2nd-investment, bankruptcy history... the list goes on and on. There are so many factors and so many people involved in the process that if you want to continue in this business... you will have respect for your job and the jobs of everyone around you. The borrower has three days to look over his/her docs... if they want to cancel, they can. You have no business doing what you did! If there is a problem, an LO should be called...

As a 'mobile' SA... your job is to ID the borrower, present the docs, notarize and go home. If you have a problem with this.. you shouldn't be in the business. If your problem is that you think you should be paid the full price for a sign or no-sign... then attack that issue...

A closer in a Title Company would never dream of 'hosing' a closing like you did... and that's why MOST CLOSINGS ARE DONE AT THE TITLE COMPANY. They come to us as a LAST RESORT, if you want to lose business for yourself and the rest of us... keep it up!

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/25/06 9:37pm
Msg #155062

Please, everyone read what Angelina has said & REMEMBER IT!

As a notary, you seriously really don't have a clue as to why the loan is the way the loan is. Nor is it any of your business to know. Nor should you even begin to 'think you know'. Do your job & leave everyone else's job to them. Period.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/25/06 10:19pm
Msg #155072

Re: SA's... if you want business... don't do this!

"If you have a problem with this.. you shouldn't be in the business. "

This is what went through my mind when I read the original post - and that (s)he gave them the right advice about finding another notary...

I've had situations (it's happened more than once) where the borrower was sure the LO quoted a different interest rate than what was on the documents and they weren't about to sign. Later come to find out that all's well after a chat with the LO (and/or a check with his/her notes). It's not uncommon for a borrower to have selective memory - or to just not hear everything they were told. Sometimes there are surprises, but reasons for them that the LO can explain (often related to something on the excellent list of potential issues that AngelinaAZ detailed above). These things don't come up in the kind of phone call you are talking about - and SHOULDN'T be dealt with by us at all.

Reply by Roger_OH on 10/25/06 7:16pm
Msg #155039

When I make the confirmation call, the only thing I will mention about the docs is if there is a
significant balance due on the HUD, so they will be sure to have a cashier's check. Sometimes that amount is not what they were expecting, and they'll call their LO then. I would not go thru the terms of the loan on the phone.

Occasional no-signs go with the territory in this business. Some companies will pay full fee for a no-sign, others just a trip fee. Check the company's policy before you accept the signing and decide whether you want to take it, knowing that no-signs are the exception rather than the rule.

Reply by Julie/MI on 10/25/06 8:13pm
Msg #155047

Very very bad

When I see comments like this, it makes me nervous to join a lot of the notary marketing groups.

I could not, in good faith, recommend you to one of my clients.

This is a risk that you take. I live in the semi-boonies myself, but I have learned to have the borrower call the l.O. when I get there if they have a problem.

Let's face it, those that have balloons as a first mortage, don't exactly have 750+ credit scores. Usually these are done in order for the borrower to improve their credit score (and pigs fly) so they can refi in a few years at a better rate. Sometimes they really do. A balloon may get someone out of a rising ARM. It's not our concern as to why. They may be moving in 3 years and figure they don't make much of a dent in the principle anyway. Maybe they plan on doing bi-weekly or other repayment methods.

I am currently closing a ton of balloons that are people moving from a heloc with an adjustable rate that want the security of a fixed rate and they can overpay (and they never do, but not MY problem) if they want to avoid the ballon at the end.

You are clearly wrong.

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/25/06 8:32pm
Msg #155049

Try this.

Perhaps a better way to assure yourself of 'not wasting your time' would be to explain to the hiring entity that the distances & time it takes is not worth it to you if this turns into a no-sign. I have gotten co's to agree to full or almost full fee because I explain that they are 'paying for my time' and no-signs take as much, if not more time, than a complete no-problem signing. I simply can't work for nominal token amount 'trip fees'.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/25/06 10:59pm
Msg #155080

The most I'll discuss on the phone with the buyer is when I'm confirming the appointment if it happens to be a 1st and HELOC I'll confirm that they're aware we're signing two packages and I'll need probably a couple hours with them so I know they don't plan on running out of the house on me half-way through. Other than that the terms are in the papers and that waits for the at-table talk.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/25/06 11:00pm
Msg #155082

Re: P.S. reviewing docs ahead of time w/borrower

Need to add - outside of confirming they have the photocopies of ID I need and a check for me if necessary.

Reply by sue_pa on 10/26/06 7:45am
Msg #155132

... I'll need probably a couple hours with them ...

These few words jumped out at me and I am curious as to how you conduct a closing that it takes a couple hours

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/26/06 7:49am
Msg #155133

Not that this has anything to do with the topic at hand...but if you read the whole post, I said "if it happens to be a 1st and HELOC I'll confirm that they're aware we're signing two packages " - yes - a couple hours for 2 packages..

Reply by sue_pa on 10/26/06 7:50am
Msg #155134

I saw that you said 2 packages and I still am wondering what you do that takes a couple hours.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/26/06 7:52am
Msg #155135

How long do you think it should take?

Reply by sue_pa on 10/26/06 7:58am
Msg #155136

Sorry to so upset you. I asked what I thought was a simple question. To answer yours, unless there were some special circumstances, it would take me no more than an hour and when I do doubles the second isn't a HELOC - it's a full blown second.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/26/06 8:04am
Msg #155137

Two full packages - one hour? - now I ask what YOU do that you can do two full packages in one hour. And you didn't upset me - I was surprised at your question. If each package takes, hypothetically, 45 minutes to sign that's an hour and a half - I tell them two hours to allow for them taking phone calls, walking away from the table, getting a drink or food (which has happened)..and most doubles I've had are over 100 pages each.

I had a single last night that took me 2 hours - 168 pages - the husband was 90 years old. Thankfully I didn't have two last night - I'd stll be there.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 10/26/06 8:11am
Msg #155140

I'll be watching for this reply myself Linda

It takes me on average 1 1/2 hours to do a piggyback and I've been watching and reading for hints on how I can be more efficient and improve my presentation.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/26/06 8:14am
Msg #155141

Re: I'll be watching for this reply myself Linda

I'm not sure you can improve on 90 minutes for a piggyback - especially when some of them are of equal volume - that's good time Sue.

Reply by Jason on 10/25/06 11:19pm
Msg #155084

I always review terms b4 print+drive

What I see in my area:
% of docs that get signed on 1st version in my area: around 33%

So much bait and switch going on the rest have to be fixed b4 brwrs will sign.

I'm not spending my time, equip, supplies, car, gas, etc on no signs.

It's he** trying to get a decent print + trip fee.

I don't tell TCs and LOs I review terms w/ brwrs b4 appt. I just do it.
Heck w/ LOs if they lied.

I don't need clients who lie to brwrs. They can go jump. I don't care if they dump me. I don't want more work from them. Time wasters.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 10/26/06 12:01am
Msg #155089

Is everybody else driving bad ....

... or is it you? I've had my 'bad days' where it seems like the people doing the docs must have been on crack... but it doesn't happen very often.

I cannot believe that in your corner of the universe... LO's are cornering the market on lying to borrowers. You might want to take a good hard look at your attitude with the borrowers and your general presentation of the docs. It sounds to me like you might have a hand in that 33%.

***Heck w/ LOs if they lied.*** I guess your motto is two wrongs make a right? How do you justify the UPL when you make the decision to read and interpret information for the borrower. You aren't even supposed to tell them what their rates and terms are when the docs are in front of them.... let alone over the phone!!! You are supposed to tell them what a note is and then point to the areas that have their information. I find the justification of your actions very convenient... for you!

Reply by MichiganAl on 10/26/06 12:10am
Msg #155093

Re: Is everybody else driving bad ....

Let's see, I get a no sign about one out of 500. But in WA, it's one out of three? Curious.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/26/06 7:08am
Msg #155124

Al, my % is right up there with yours......

Perhaps our clientele is direct.
I deal directly with the LO's, EO's & TC's.
IMO it is much easier to gain their confidences and business
when you know your role in the system, and don't try to play THEIR roles.

Reply by Jason on 10/26/06 9:38am
Msg #155159

Why no signs very high in my area

In my area there are 2 huge credit unions. People are very loyal to em.

They give great loans. All signings done in house. They're open late + on Sat. I did my own refi w/ one.

Most people get refis @ the CUs. The banks here hate em.

The non-RevMort loans I get means someone responded to a call or letter from a distant LO, usually in CA. So I see a lot of crappy loans.

The RevMorts here are trouble free cuz the LO is local and discloses everything.

Reply by MichiganAl on 10/26/06 12:02am
Msg #155091

Re: I always review terms b4 print+drive

"I don't tell TCs and LOs I review terms w/ brwrs b4 appt. I just do it."

Well, that says it all. If you're not telling them you're doing it, you obviously know it's wrong. That's a pretty good rule of thumb. If you're doing something you hope your companies don't find out about, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

I wouldn't link to my profile if I were you either, Jason, because you wouldn't work for long in this business if your companies knew what you were doing. But they'll find out eventually. I guarantee it.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/26/06 6:28am
Msg #155119

Re: I always review terms b4 print+drive

IMO this is one of the reasons why this business is slowing down....LO's are choosing local TC's where they KNOW the deal won't be blown.
Keep it up and before you know it, you can get a job with a local TC, but not for long if they catch you reviewing terms before the borrower arrives.
Good grief, people. You are biting your nose to spite your face.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 10/26/06 7:35am
Msg #155129

Re: I always review terms b4 print+drive

***Good grief, people. You are biting your nose to spite your face.***

Isn't it amazing? I will never understand how these people can be in this business and just NOT GET IT! Yikes!

Reply by Charm_AL on 10/26/06 8:36am
Msg #155146

Re: I always review terms b4 print+drive

wow..... I hope you have a ton of E&O.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/26/06 9:22am
Msg #155155

I think general liabilty insurance may be what is needed

because from my understanding, E & O only covers errors and ommissions in notarizations.
But I agree that when you take on the responsibility of an LO, you should have some sort of business coverage...yikes, can you imagine the repercussions of blowing it for a brw with certain problems we are not aware of?

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 10/26/06 10:21am
Msg #155167

No...

...nearly all "general liability insurance" (AKA CGL: Commercial General Liability) policies have an exclusion for professional errors & omissions (E&O). A "Notary" E&O policy is tailored to meet the needs of a Notary Public & coverage usually is specifically limited to notarial acts. However one may purchase a professional E&O (not CGL) policy to protect yourself from the exposure of the other aspects of a normal loan document signing. I haven't looked into it for quite awhile, but it's my understanding there are one or two companies offering a professional E&O policy for a fairly hefty premium.

BTW my comments are not to be construed as legal or insurance advice. They're based on my 29 years in the P&C insurance industry here in Missouri & derived from the state statutes I work under. For the definitive answer you should apply due diligence & seek opinions on this issue from an insurance professional in your own state.

Reply by MichiganAl on 10/25/06 11:55pm
Msg #155088

That's just scary. You are paid to do the signing...

We are not loan officers, loan analysts, loan consultants, or anything else that has anything to do with what happens before you walk in the door. Reviewing loan terms ahead of time with the borrower is so far out of our scope it's not even funny. Our job starts and ends at the table.

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 10/26/06 12:20am
Msg #155097

The difference between a "hobbyist" and a Professional

A professional goes into this as a business venture, the hobbyist goes in as a "part time, extra money" JOB. At a job, mostly if you just show up and don't screw up too badly, you get paid. In a business there are ups and downs, good and bad, people that pay and people that don't; but there are NO GUARANTEES! That's what you're looking for. Of course, I agree, I'd like to get my full fee for every job that I go on because you are right, most of the time the "no signs" take longer than a full signing and are a lot more stressful; but some companies pay it and some don't, mostly because they don't collect unless its a completed deal -- signed, sealed and funded. I have been doing this for almost 5 years and I don't average any more than 4 to 6 "no signs" in a year (and this is all I do). No way, is my average 30% that don't sign -- Even when I was doing a lot of Ameriquest, I have very few no signs. What you view as confiscatory rates the borrower may view as a god send. We never know what is going on in their lives nor do I want to know. It is not our place to draw attention to any detail in their loan that we feel is not the best deal. The only thing I go over with the borrower's with on the phone is to confirm the appointment, inform then (if it's not on the confirmation) that if they are married the spouse must be there to sign a few documents, to have a photo copy of their licenses and if when I get the HUD there is a large amount due, a recall to make sure that they have the figure right and have made arrangements to get a bank check. That's it.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/26/06 7:15am
Msg #155125

Re: The difference between a "hobbyist" and a Professional

Well said, Dorothy. My no sign rate is still 1-2%.

I remember when a "good" rate on a mortgage was 10%. I remember being quoted 9% and buying down to 8.25%.

It's nice to see 6.4%, but 9.5 - 10% on some loans today are blessings to people.

Reply by noteclub/MD on 10/26/06 9:25am
Msg #155156

Re: The difference between a "hobbyist" and a Professional

Thank You Dorothy

This is one of the most informative messages I have read on this site... I wish there were more of them.

Reply by Becca_FL on 10/26/06 12:05am
Msg #155092

NOT your place! Do NOT "go over" docs before appointment. n/m

Reply by DEvans/CA on 10/26/06 12:29am
Msg #155099

Re: NOT your place! Do NOT "go over" docs before appointment.

My very first signing the borrower looks at the application and sees an arm that he said he was not suppose to have and the interest rate was wrong. Call to the lender, he consoles him and tell us not to sign that paper but sign the rest and they will correct it later. That is what we did.

Reply by christiSocal on 10/26/06 3:54am
Msg #155114

Whether or not we like it, borrowers look to us

like we know all about loans, so going into it the way it sounds like you do makes them think "oh no bad loan! Like someone else said, we have no idea why the loan is set up the way it is. Might sound terrible to you, but be the best that borrower can get. I have very few no-signs, because I stay neutral. The way we're supposed to.

Reply by Julie/MI on 10/26/06 5:58am
Msg #155117

Devans/ca

I'm certain this must be a mistake, that you would not present the 1003 as one of the first docs to get the loan terms.

Everyone knows you must surely have meant the note......