Posted by Bob_Chicago on 9/1/06 9:09am
Msg #142814

OT --Gibson Follow Up

First of all, let me apologize for not checking the identitiy
of the author of the letter that I posted. I am shocked to learn
that you can not fully rely on the accuracy of info that you get
off of the internet.
I believe, however, that the content was far more important
than the name of the actual author.
I posted it to generate some thought. We cerainly had a lively discussion.
Thank you all for your participation.
I found it interesting that the advocates of the fringes of both the
far right and of the far left have more in common than they may care to admit.
I believe that Mr. Gibson is truly sorry for what he said. Sorry, because it
will cost him millions and , more importantly, the adoration of many of
his fans, which is what many of the Hollywod types thrive on. Unfortunately
some will likely adore him more , now knowing his true feelings on the
subject. In vino et veritas. (did not take Latin, but I think that you get the idea)
I do not believe that he deserves forgiveness, first of all, for endangering
the lives of others who were on the highway when he was driving while,
admittedly, totally drunk and secondly for apparently being and remaining
a virlulent anti-semite right down to his DNA.
Have a wonderful Labor Day holday everyone.
Drive sober and drive safe.
Remember alcohol and gasoline may mix, but the combination tastes terrible.
(Note to Doc. Speaking of alcohol, I will call you when I get to LV> Maybe we
can meet to lift one. )

Reply by hcampersFL on 9/1/06 9:28am
Msg #142825

I have been watching a show on HGTV called DesignStar. Really a interesting show. It has given me wonderful ideas for remodeling my Master bedroom. I can't wait to get started.

Reply by Becca_FL on 9/1/06 9:56am
Msg #142832

Don't drink and drive!

Now that's something I think we all can agree with.

To that I would like to add (for a few select posters) It is also not a good idea to drink and post. Drunk dialing and drunk emailing people you do not know is also a bad idea.

Reply by celeste/ca on 9/1/06 10:17am
Msg #142841

Yes, what Mel did was a tragedy, drinking while driving should be jail time no matter who you are! But, not deserving forgiveness, doesn't God forgive us everyday for our many sins? Forgiveness yes, Forgetness NO!

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 10:30am
Msg #142843

Forgiveness is a gift. If we had to

deserve it to receive it, I venture to say none of us would ever receive the precious gift of forgiveness.

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/1/06 11:12am
Msg #142858

"Forgiveness yes, Forgetness NO!"

Yes, yes, yes.

We were not made with permanent amnesia. I think the only justified "amnesia" (where one experiences pain) is childbirth.

Pain, whether emotional, mental, or physical, teaches us what to avoid and how to navigate our way around situations. To ignore that lesson is to enable a bad situatiion to get worse.

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/1/06 11:18am
Msg #142862

Re: OT --Gibson Follow Up, In other words...

Mel Gibson should be considered an anti-Semite and a person likely to drink, drive and endanger lives until concrete proof exists that the same has changed. This cannot be mitigated by an apology. In response to his behavior, I "forgive" what he has done, but I do not "forget" that his actions have proven.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 9/1/06 11:40am
Msg #142870

Re: OT --Gibson Follow Up, In other words... but Brenda

This is strictly a rhetorical question. If you forgive how can you not forget the actions. Now I am not a particularly nice person because I rarely forgive and I am mean and vindictive (I know myself well). But forgiving in the sense most people use it appears to mean to me that they let go of all, as the dictionary puts it "...to give up resentment of or claim to requital for..." My feelings precisely. That is why I say I don't forgive, I find it hard to give up resentment and someone would have to go a long ways for me to give up a claim to requital for a word or deed. Mel Gibson is totally irrelevant, he is just an actor, I 've always had a hard time understanding the relevance of actors in our culture and why people impute greater understanding simply becasue they played a part. Mel Gibson playing Christ obviously doesn't give him any Christly attributes: why would anyone expect it?

Reply by celeste/ca on 9/1/06 11:52am
Msg #142871

Re: OT --Gibson Follow Up, In other words... but Brenda

I too for along time would hold grudges. It did me no good except eat away at me and cause stress in my life. I don't want to do any preaching to anyone, this is my experience, but through finally reading scriptures and understanding how God forgives us for are sins, how should I behave with others? I have learned to put it in God's hand. I struggle with this, it is in my nature to hold onto anger. Each time a situation comes up I pray, and each time it gets a little easier to let go of the problem and forgive. Mind you, I don't forget when someone has wronged me, I go about it in different ways.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 9/1/06 12:00pm
Msg #142876

Re: OT Hi Celeste. Grudges can eat away at you and

totally ruin your health and mental attitude. You obviously have a coping strategy that works for you but in your last sentence it appears to me that you basically return to the thought that while you firgive and forget you still remember. I guess what I was saying is that I don't call it forgiveness unless one is able to put the whole incident out of ones mind. I guess its just semantics on my part: that's why I said it was a rhetorical question. I think we all cope with such things differently and I guess we call it different things.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 9/1/06 1:03pm
Msg #142885

Re: OT Forgiving and forgetting. . .

There are long moments of time when you can forget - or, perhaps, not think about - the most egregious act someone has committed, but something will eventually trigger the feelings and memories you originally had. This is beyond our control. What is in our control is to put them in perspective and not act on them anymore, even if it means working up to forgiving all over again.

Just finished reading "Blue Water" by A. Manette Ansay. A woman joins her husband on a sailboat in their attempt to leave behind the painful memories of their 6-year-old son, killed in a car accident by a childhood friend driving with a hangover.

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 1:23pm
Msg #142890

Well said Marlene! n/m

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 12:07pm
Msg #142877

And God said you're forgiven but I will remember your

sins and damn you to hell on judgement day. (Thankfully no!)

We on the other hand forgive and forget. Or is it the other way around.
Sarcasim aside...

I too think that to truly forgive you must forget (let go, release or what ever you want to call it.)
The fact that we hold on to the memory in whatever way gives us a claim to resentment, anger and mistrust.
This leads a lifetime of anger and resentment and in some cases it's passed down from generation to generation and soon you have a generation of people not directly touched by the original sin filled with anger laying claim to a rensentment and unforgiveness that is not theirs to claim.

To forgive is easy to forget is devine. (not easy but nessesary none the less)

Reply by JM_NY on 9/1/06 1:18pm
Msg #142888

I will remember

and I will not forget. He drove while drunk before and he probably will again. Apologies are just words for something for something you know puts you in the wrong light. Antisemitism in todays world just doesn't exist for me. For me to let go is easy. He is not in my immediate world and I never think of him in my daily life. Enough of Mel Gilbson.

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 1:35pm
Msg #142896

I understand JM. Trust me I too have those memories that I

choose to hold on to. Be it because they are to difficult to let go of or simply because I haven't recognized that I'm holding on to them.

We all have to live with the memories we hold on to. I guess I'm trying to make room for more cherished memories by getting rid of the more haunting ones.

Best Wishes to You! (smiles) poppy

Reply by Jahari Davis on 9/1/06 1:41pm
Msg #142900

What about redemption? Is redemption dead? n/m

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 1:55pm
Msg #142904

No, Jahari. Redemption is not dead... Luckily for me.

Not to put words in your mouth Jahari, but it sounds a little to me like you believe that forgiveness requires an apology. I don't share that same opinion. To me forgiveness requires no apology but redemption does.

I should also note that to me an apology and repentance must go hand in hand.

I may be wrong, but it works for me... (smiles) Poppy

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/1/06 2:09pm
Msg #142908

Re: What about redemption? Is redemption dead?

Assuming we are discussing redemption from a >>Christian<< perspective, Christ is the "redeemer." Personal redemption comes when a person accepts it.

Reply by Merry_CA on 9/1/06 2:23pm
Msg #142920

Re: What about redemption? Is redemption dead?

As a "pk" (preachers kid) we were taught that Jesus' death was the price of our sin. Jesus' death releases ALL of us (the whole world!) from the captivity of our sins (Redemption). In our dealings with our fellow man we must apologize and make amends. Christians believe that Jesus took care of the "sin" part.

Reply by Charm_AL on 9/1/06 2:25pm
Msg #142923

Re: What about redemption? Is redemption dead?

my sentiments exactly Merry.

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/1/06 2:37pm
Msg #142934

Re: What about redemption? My point was...

that outside opinions do not affect the "sinner." Redemption is a situation between the Redeemer and the redeemed, and unaffected by what others "think, say or do."

Reply by Jahari Davis on 9/1/06 2:34pm
Msg #142931

Re: What about redemption? Is redemption dead?

Redemption is redemption. Be it Christian or personal it is still redemption. Perspective should only matter to the one seeking it and the eyes of the one they are seeking it from.

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 2:45pm
Msg #142942

Good point Jahari. Even the Bible tells us that we aren't

to take on someone elses battle.

Why?

I thinks it's because if we intrude and take on a battle that isn't ours, what should be between two becomes a battle of 3,4,10, thousands or whatever number.

The original two (offender and offendee) may work it out between each other. Asking for forgiveness, giving forgivness and moving on etc.
Leaving those who took up the battle left holding on to a grudge that wasn't there's to begin with.

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 3:14pm
Msg #142966

Opps, their's not there's... n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/1/06 2:58pm
Msg #142955

Re: What about redemption? Is redemption dead?

I stand on what I said, and I am not going to debate it.

Reply by Jahari Davis on 9/1/06 3:05pm
Msg #142960

Re: What about redemption? Is redemption dead?

Brenda, I cant speak everyone but I'm not disagreeing with you. For those that do not follow Christianity, redemption is still redemption but only in the eyes of others. A Christian can find redemption in the eyes of an Athiest just as a Muslim can find redemption in the eyes of a Christian.

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 3:28pm
Msg #142971

Brenda, where is the frustration coming from? Have I

offended you? If so I'm sorry, it was not my intent.
I'm not sure if I agree with you or not regarding "Christian Redemption" I'd have to think about it a little more deeply and even then I doubt I would make my feelings known.
(I haven't found debating issues of a Christian nature a safe topic even among Christians)

My above post regarding redemption was my feeling of what redemption (person to person) required. Nothing more, Nothing Less.

For me, I think that a huge part of what is tearing us apart as a nation is our lack of the ability to forgive and offer forgiveness. That was all I was trying to express.

(Smiles) Poppy

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/1/06 4:24pm
Msg #142991

Smiling at you Ms. Poppy...

I was not responding to anything you said.

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 4:30pm
Msg #143003

Back at ya! Ms. Texas n/m

Reply by MelissaCT on 9/1/06 2:29pm
Msg #142929

Re: And God said you're forgiven but I will remember your

Actually, there isn't anything about hell in the bible. The concept was introduced when the babylonians were in power...just some food for thought.

Reply by JM_NY on 9/1/06 2:41pm
Msg #142938

Re: And God said you're forgiven but I will remember your

Good for you Melissa. No one actually reads what it is said in the bible. It is what some old sage translated it to mean. I guess it never had to be notarized. lol.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 9/1/06 2:43pm
Msg #142939

In the NIV version of the Bible...

...there are 14 scriputure passages with the specific word "hell" in them. In the King James version there are 25. There are other words or terms in the Bible which reference the word hell, but use different verbiage (i.e. "lake of fire". May I ask upon what basis you've made your statement "there isn't anything about hell in the Bible"?

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 9/1/06 2:47pm
Msg #142944

I'm Going to Have to Quit Using

quotation marks followed by a parenthesis. The message board turns it into a smiley icon when I don't intend for it to be there. Does anyone know a way around that?

Reply by hcampersFL on 9/1/06 2:50pm
Msg #142945

Re: I'm Going to Have to Quit Using

Maybe the space bar?

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 9/1/06 2:52pm
Msg #142949

Good Suggestion...

...either that or place a period after the quotation mark.

Reply by Merry_CA on 9/1/06 2:53pm
Msg #142950

Re: I'm Going to Have to Quit Using

God loves smiley faces!
Hell is place of our own making - metaphorically used in several places in the bible to illustrate this.
Mel Gibson was redeemed along with the rest of us.
His apology and amends to the Jews is quite another thing and is for them to figure out.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 9/1/06 2:57pm
Msg #142952

I Like Smiley Faces, Too...

...just not in the middle of a phrase where it's not intended. It can alter the meaning of my message.

Reply by celeste/ca on 9/1/06 2:44pm
Msg #142941

Re: And God said you're forgiven but I will remember your

Actually, According to Jesus, Hell is a very real place prepared for the Devil and his angels (Mt 25:41). People who choose not to follow God will also be there... basically, it is a place where God is not.

Sample of some verses found in Matthew alone... to many to list all of them about hell:

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mt 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.

Mt 5:29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.

Mt 5:30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.

Mt 10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mt 18:9 And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire.

Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

Reply by Jahari Davis on 9/1/06 2:50pm
Msg #142947

Re: And God said you're forgiven but I will remember your

There's a lot that was added to the bible over the years. I'm embarking on a special project to learn Hebrew and Greek and obtain the most original biblical text I can find to read before the bible was changed for the political forces in power of the day. My theory was that there was a lot that was added and edited and removed from the original scripture. I was a counsellor at a camp this summer and one of the other counsellors was a Biblical scholor and some of the things he told me affirmed that for me. For instance, there was no apostle named James. There was an apostle named Jacob whose name was changed to James as a wink and a nod to King James. Also, Sodom and Gamorra were not the names of those cities. Sodom means "burnt" and Gamorra means "a ruined heap" and their original names lost. I'm really looking forward to learning the languages and reading.

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 3:03pm
Msg #142958

Just for the record. God did not say that he would remember

our sins and damn us to hell. I was being facetious (sp) to make a point.

I guess I didn't do a very good job. Sorry to stir things up it was not my intent.

Reply by Merry_CA on 9/1/06 3:04pm
Msg #142959

Re: And God said you're forgiven but I will remember your

Oh, Jahari.... you are embarking on a most enlightening quest. When one decides to study the bible from a scholarly perspective a whole new world opens. I was raised by a verrrrry liberal (and scholarly) Methodist minister. I was encouraged to study and question the bible. It is a rich and marvelous text. Study of the bible and its supplemental texts is a life long intellectual pursuit. Enjoy!

Reply by celeste/ca on 9/1/06 3:14pm
Msg #142965

Re: And God said you're forgiven but I will remember your

Great! That is a wonderful goal to learn the original Hebrew and Greek languages. The Old Testiment was written mostly in Hebrew, with a little Aramaic, and the New Testament was written entirely in Greek.
There are still over 5000 manuscripts of the letters of the new testament that one can transalte. There are many Bible programs that "ANYONE" can buy for their PC (pretty cheap)that has multiple bible transations as well as the original languages (Hebrew & Greek)... they are very helpful for bible study.
FYI: The King James version is simply another translation (or version) ordered by the "King" named James... thus they named it after him. Any version (and there are many) is only as good as the person or people doing the translating. That is why most bible students will rely on multiple translated versions, as well as going back to the original language.

Reply by bestcal on 9/1/06 5:19pm
Msg #143011

Re: And God said you're forgiven but I will remember your n/m

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 9/1/06 3:53pm
Msg #142975

Can one expect to be forgiven for a sin that they.......

continue to commit in their heart and mind?
PS .- Boy do I know how to get a discussion going.
I wish that Harry could put in an OT forum. I feel guilty causing the filling
up the board with all of this non NP/NSA stuff.

Reply by christiSocal on 9/1/06 4:05pm
Msg #142978

Re: Can one expect to be forgiven for a sin that they.......

Generally if you're asking for forgiveness , You are supposed to be repenting. Repent means to stop, or turn away from. So if you have no intention of changing, then you are not sincere about wanting forgiveness or not sincere enough anyway...

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 4:06pm
Msg #142979

Bob, I think that is why repentance must go hand in hand

with asking for forgiveness.

And you should be sorry, just look at what you started. I forgive you by the way! ;-)

Reply by Merry_CA on 9/1/06 4:23pm
Msg #142988

Re: Can one expect to be forgiven for a sin that they.......

*all of this non NP/NSA stuff* has very much to do with how we represent ourselves to the world. It is very important and not at all a waste of space. As I learned it, those sins that one continues to commit in ones heart and mind where forgiven long ago when Jesus died on the cross. If you consider yourself a practicing Christian that is your #1 rule. Any punishment for the sins one continues to commit is suffered internally. Problem is... most Christians are simply "C and Ers" and do not practice Christianity in their daily lives. For this reason they don't keep the Jesus story close to their hearts. When events like the Mel Gibson incident occur, they start arguing the forgiveness/redemption thing all over again.

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 4:27pm
Msg #142995

Merry can you help me out with the "C and Ers" n/m

Reply by Merry_CA on 9/1/06 4:28pm
Msg #142999

Re: Merry can you help me out with the "C and Ers"

Christmas and Easter!

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 4:29pm
Msg #143001

Okay, I get it... Thanks! n/m

Reply by Giselle_CA on 9/1/06 5:44pm
Msg #143023

Re: Can one expect to be forgiven for a sin that they.......

Talking from a Christian perspective, God will forgive us if we first repent of whatever we have done wrong.

Repentance means to stop or turn away from.

He is not going to do that if we do not mean business.

In order for us to really and truly repent, we must look within and honestly ask ourselves if God will accept/approve of our standard of living. Most people think they are moral people, which they do deserve to go to Heaven (assuming they believe that).

So, just let me ask a simple question: Now this is a question to those assuming they are Christians or Jews.

Have you kept all of the 10 commandments?

Have you ever lied? Have you ever stolen? Have you kept the Sabbath?

If after you honestly answered those questions with a no, then you haven't kept God's commandments.

Do you think after death that God being a righteous Judge will overlook the breaking of his Laws/Commandments for anyone of us? For me, honestly the answer is no.

God has given us His Son Jesus for us to be able to stand at Judgment day, otherwise, none would stand.

Now, there is no other name given to man by which we must be saved.

Just like a judge here on earth sets a sentence to those that break the laws, so does God punishes those that break His commandments. And even if the judge on earth is corrupt and could succumb to extortion to set someone free, a righteous Judge that God is, will not.

To think otherwise, that we could do anything without repentance and be forgiven without Jesus, if futile in my opinion.

Reply by Becca_FL on 9/1/06 3:59pm
Msg #142976

Bob, I order that you sit through a Soap Making 101 class

for bringing this $hit up again. AND, Doc if you meet up with our friend Bob, do NOT give him any of your EOM or hangover remedies as punishment. There, I'm done.

Reply by christiSocal on 9/1/06 4:07pm
Msg #142980

Ok, Ok. But how about making play doh this time! n/m

Reply by Poppy on 9/1/06 4:08pm
Msg #142982

That was too funny Becca! n/m

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 9/1/06 4:16pm
Msg #142984

OK OK If I start any OT threads (unless really funny)....

before I get back from Las Vegas,
then I deserve to be beaten senseless with a wet jurat.

Reply by Merry_CA on 9/1/06 4:31pm
Msg #143004

Re: Bob, I order that you sit through a Soap Making 101 class

Oh, Becca.... this discussion is about either poop or $. If you feel that it is I know of someone who make very expensive olive oil soap!

Reply by Merry_CA on 9/1/06 4:32pm
Msg #143005

Re: Bob, I order that you sit through a Soap Making 101 class

oops! neither poop or $!

Reply by bestcal on 9/1/06 5:36pm
Msg #143015

Re: Wow!What happened here today!!Having fun or what? n/m