Posted by MaineNotary on 4/17/07 11:23am
Msg #185593

Another lowballer

I just had a call from Loan Closers for a refi, e-docs. The location is 35 miles from where I live and many areas here in Maine have had flooding, roads washed out, etc. I might do that during the day for the right price but at night with the travel and weather conditions, nope.

For the heck of it, I asked what she was paying. She replied, "$70 with e-docs within a 50 mile radius."

I calmly told her my fee for e docs refi, which was a substantial difference, and that the town she's mentioned was 20 miles r/t beyond the 50 mile radius. Made me also wonder where they get their low ball distances.

Gas in the Portland, ME, area is closing in on $3/gal.

At $70 e-docs and that distance, I absolutely LOSE $. Are these people crazy? I've turned down close to a dozen calls over the past 2 weeks from low ballers.

Reply by LisaWI on 4/17/07 11:39am
Msg #185597

I hear ya loud and clear. "Are these people crazy?" Which ones, the comps who offer these fees or the SA's who take them. All of them, IMO. You know how the saying goes: It takes two to tango. There's ridiculous and then theres, what do you think I am, stupid?

Reply by cara on 4/17/07 12:58pm
Msg #185609

Agreed, someone is taking those assignments. With the constant training and recruiting of new NSAs by XYZ and others, there is a never ending stream of newbs who are starting at the bottom and/or haven’t yet learned how to price their services to ensure they will make a profit.

What can we do, other than stand our ground and consistently deliver superior, error-free services?

Perhaps you can find out who is taking these jobs (check with the County Recorder’s office and pull up the deed of trusts and see who did the notary work for that assignment). If you can determine who is taking the jobs you might suggest that they start reading these postings and help educate. What do you think? How else can we take an education tack?

Reply by April factorfiction on 4/17/07 1:10pm
Msg #185614

wow gas in sacramento is $3.15

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/17/07 1:21pm
Msg #185618

Re: My husband just paid 2.829/gal here in NW Florida n/m

Reply by LisaWI on 4/17/07 1:46pm
Msg #185624

Re: 2.89 here and that was 2 days ago. n/m

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/17/07 2:50pm
Msg #185641

$3.19 in Mendocino County, there, doesn't that make you

feel better already??

Reply by FlBrit on 4/17/07 3:25pm
Msg #185648

Re: $2.85 in Destin, FL n/m

Reply by MistarellaFL on 4/17/07 3:55pm
Msg #185666

3.07 in SW FL n/m

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/17/07 4:01pm
Msg #185669

Re: 3.07 in SW FL How come so cheap Misty? Here in Ca

they tell us its the special formulations that are required to keep the fruits and nuts from oxidizing due to NOx emissions. SW Fl is hardly outof the way so transportation costs shouldn't be too bad (an excuse they use in my neck of the toursity woods) . Why the price?

Reply by LisaWI on 4/17/07 4:20pm
Msg #185675

Re: 3.07 in SW FL Charles....

My significant other watches the prices of crude and we have been trying to figure out the price increase on gas, because the prices of crude were not rising up until I think last week. There werent any worldly disasters going on either. There didnt seem to be any justification for these rising prices. Got any inside info on this?

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/17/07 5:50pm
Msg #185697

Re: 3.07 in SW FL Charles....I wishI did...

I try to project my expenses by quarters and here I am at a new quarter, trying to project the next quarter and the gas prices make absolutely no sense to me. I wish I know what to plan but I don't, I know that here in Mendocino the gas stations raise thier prices tis timeof year in anticipation of the tourist season. I use a cardlock and have fleet pricing so mine are a bit more stable but I have no idea what is causing the soaring costs. I'd like to blame it on greed but I suspect that is too simplistic, at least I hope it is. Gasoline prices are one commodity like food, in these days it is an absolute necessity and people just knuckle under and pay the price.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/17/07 6:43pm
Msg #185701

$3.25 in Lincoln City last night, haven't checked today...:( n/m

Reply by MistarellaFL on 4/17/07 10:14pm
Msg #185749

Re: 3.07 in SW FL

We are close enough to the ports, it should be cheaper.
All I know for sure is we are taxed almost .50 on the gallon.

Reply by Denise/NCVA on 4/17/07 3:26pm
Msg #185649

I guess I don't understand where you're losing money, unless you don't get paid. Even with the gas prices the way they are, I would still make at least $60 for an hour's work. Where can you get an job for $60/hour for such an easy job? I don't have any other expenses beside gas and a little bit of paper AND notary fees are not income taxed. The write offs are tremendous as well.... I just don't get the Low Ball theme.

Reply by LC/AZ on 4/17/07 3:40pm
Msg #185654

And how do you figure your total time is 1 hour? 50 miles, one way and 50 miles back could take, maybe, on the open road, say, 45 minutes, each way. Not to mention, perhaps, the extra trip to drop off the docs. Then there's the time spent printing the docs, looking them over to make sure all instructions are noted, and nothing is missing. And on and on and on... Trust me, that is a lowball fee!

Reply by FlBrit on 4/17/07 3:41pm
Msg #185655

WOW!! I certainly hope you ARE kidding n/m

Reply by FlBrit on 4/17/07 3:42pm
Msg #185657

Re: WOW!! I certainly hope you ARE kidding

Directed at Denise NC

Reply by LC/AZ on 4/17/07 3:48pm
Msg #185659

Re: WOW!! I certainly hope you ARE kidding

Whew! For a moment I was worried.

Reply by FlBrit on 4/17/07 3:52pm
Msg #185663

Re: WOW!! I certainly hope you ARE kidding

she's crazy for that posting! I wasn't even going to waste my time with breakdowns....

Reply by Sher_AZ on 4/17/07 3:49pm
Msg #185660

Denise, does someone else buy your toner cartridges, ink pens, maintenance & repairs, tires, car insurance, etc? Doesn't sound like you've done an actual breakdown of what your real income is vs. expenses.

Reply by Becca_FL on 4/17/07 3:49pm
Msg #185661

Re: Another lowballer - Denise

>>>AND notary fees are not income taxed.<<<

Well, Denise, all I can say is, have fun with the IRS Auditor. I think after a 10 hour session with him/her you just might realize how much you really are worth.

You really have no business in this business. It's NSAs such as yourself that injure this profession and allow SSs to offer such ridiculous fees.

Reply by PartikgirlNJ on 4/17/07 3:55pm
Msg #185664

Re: Another lowballer - Denise

Sorry Denise I usually don't get into these types of things but I have to agree with Becca FL. 50 miles there 50 miles back, printing, closing, faxing, droping docs.......at least 4 hours for me. Then there is the paper, ink, gas etc plus I have to wait at least 30 days for my $60! Nope don't think so..................

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 4/17/07 3:55pm
Msg #185665

Denise says of low-ball fees:

***Where can you get an job for $60/hour for such an easy job? I don't have any other expenses beside gas and a little bit of paper AND notary fees are not income taxed. The write offs are tremendous as well.... I just don't get the Low Ball theme.***

What that $60 is supposed to cover:

1. Initial discussion and acceptance of assignment via phone/e-mail
2. Review order upon arrival
3. Insert into computer calendar, traveling calendar
4. Assign a file number in computer tracking program
5. Create file
6. Fill out order information form for file
7. Create map with computer program, place in file
8. Call borrower to confirm appointment, give instructions on ID
9. Go to appointment, execute documents
10. Prepare fax to closing/title company confirming closing and providing invoice; send fax
11. Write letter to title company detailing any problems with the closing, soliciting future business
12. Prepare overnight courier package if one is not provided; get overnight package to courier
13. Fill out order information form in file with tracking number, start/finish time of closing, etc.
14. Note closing completion in tracking program, change from pending order to account receivable
15. File file
16. Record check in when received
17. Deposit check

Of course, this is for a closing in which everything goes smoothly without a single hitch. That may be one closing out of five. You may be stuck with a closing that cancels, in which case the effort put into steps 1-8 is wasted, uncompensated effort. Or, you may have to place several calls to the borrower before you finally get him. You may find that your computer map program does not recognize his address. Your printer may run out of ink or paper, and you discover that despite your best planning, you have neither on hand. Your computer may crash, adding another glitch, and so on, ad infinitum.

But wait, there’s more!

The above outline does not include the time spent trying to collect a belated or unpaid fee, the time spent occasionally correcting an oversight, etc.

In short, anyone who claims that a signing fee of $60 translates into an earned $60 an hour either has never run a business, or is blowing smoke into an unmentionable bodily orifice.

Reply by HarleyGirl on 4/17/07 4:00pm
Msg #185667

I think she said a $70 fee translates to $60. Even if you spent 90 min travel time, 30 min on the job, 30 minutes reviewing and dropping the shipment this equates to 2.5 hours. Looks like $28/hour. Still sounds good to me. Hugh Nations - Your comment sounds like you don't like your job.

Reply by LisaWI on 4/17/07 4:26pm
Msg #185678

You've got the right idea, now just subtract all your expenses, gas, paper, ink, ect and after you do that then you come up with about $5 an hour. OK, I'll give you $8 and hour if you price shop.
I think it was Becca who did a breakdown a couple of years ago or so. And it was right to the penny. It was very realistic on what your really making. Was that you Becca, or was it someone else?

Reply by Becca_FL on 4/17/07 4:44pm
Msg #185685

Re: Another lowballer - Sorry Lisa

That was not me. I'm not a numbers person with the exception of the bottom line. I think it was ChicagoBob or Roger/OH that posted the breakdown example.

Reply by LisaWI on 4/17/07 4:50pm
Msg #185687

Re: Another lowballer - Sorry Lisa-Well whoever it was

did a very nice job, and it helped me to look at this biz and get what I was worth and analyze the expenses so that I made a profit.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/17/07 5:12pm
Msg #185692

Re: Another lowballer - I think it was Laura V. n/m

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 4/17/07 5:34pm
Msg #185696

HarleyGirl sniffs:

***Hugh Nations - Your comment sounds like you don't like your job. ***

I've been most fortunate in my life to have had a really varied occupational career. Most of my life I was a newspaper reporter on metropolitan dailies in cities like San Antonio, Houston and Atlanta. But I also practiced law, freelanced for magazines, taught college, published a magazine for homebuilders and architects, and ran a non-profit association, among other assorted employment.

Nonetheless, I have enjoyed my 4 1/2 years as a signing agent after retirement as much or more than I have enjoyed anything I've ever pursued to make a living. One of the reasons I do enjoy it so much is that I charge fees commensurate with the caliber of service I render. I gather, HarleyGirl, that as lowballers the same comment could be made of both you and Denise

Reply by Denise/NCVA on 4/17/07 4:07pm
Msg #185671

Wow... Sorrryyyy! Didn't think I'd cause such a fuss. I'm doing well and get paid when the job falls through too. My expenses are very minimal and I love what I do. Everyone's comments are very negative. I hope everyone smiles when they visit a client.

Reply by LisaWI on 4/17/07 4:08pm
Msg #185673

Re: Another lowballer-Denise

Denise, we all justify our fees according to the service we provide. For me, I dont think this is an easy job. With that being said, I am very picky on the work that I do triple checking each and every loan package to be sure its done correctly. I also have found mistakes made by lender or title that have been resolved before signing time because I check over documents before I go to the closing. And to which I might add has been more than appreciated.
There are other expenses such as your cell phone, internet service, paper, ink, associations, memberships, continuing education on our industry, upkeep of the vehicle, business cards, marketing material, need I go on, there is more.
So unless you are doing this as a hobby, there is a fee that is justified and when we say lowball, if you break all this down you might as well be grocery store clerk cause it doesnt pan out.

Reply by MelissaCT on 4/17/07 4:24pm
Msg #185677

Denise, Harley

not included in Hugh's list are the SE taxes that you owe out of that $60/hr figure. Depending on your tax bracket, that eats into your "profit". When all is said & done, you're lucky to be making minimum wage at that fee. Unless, of course, your full-time employer is paying for your little side venture -- I'm sure they won't mind spending extra for supplies & not receiving ANY ROI from it. Then again, they may catch on & FIRE YOU, because stealing equates to embezzling. Doesn't have to be $$ that is stolen, productivity on the job and missing supplies are the same thing.

Reply by Amalia Contreras on 4/17/07 4:30pm
Msg #185680

Re: Denise / YOU MUST LOVE SOX n/m

Reply by LisaWI on 4/17/07 4:37pm
Msg #185681

Re: Denise / YOU MUST LOVE SOX

Now that brought a smile to my face, LOL. Good one. And yes I do go to the clients home with a smile and then some. I love what I do, and plan on continuing this until I cant anymore. Just because some of us cant justify these really low fees doesnt mean we dont like what we do, it means we think we are worth more than that because of the work that we produce.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/17/07 4:43pm
Msg #185684

Re: Denise, Harley - Moot point, these two. Leave 'em be.

They won't be working long...two pretty flashes in the pan.

Reply by Rhonda Skansi on 4/18/07 12:32am
Msg #185767

Aren't Harley girl and Denise the same person? n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/18/07 1:35am
Msg #185775

Great post...

That was the first thing that popped into my mind - because is sounds to me very much like employee thinking vs. business owner thinking, as I've said here many times. (In fact, it seems to me I posted something on this very topic quite recently...)

BTW, Denise/Harley, ROI = "Return On Investment". It's a concept it appears you aren't familiar with that a business owner needs to be. It refers to the actual profit you make after considering all the costs of doing something, including things that don't immediately impact the cashflow out of your pocket. That's why people have referred to things like "wear and tear" on your equipment and vehicle. Items used in business eventually have to be replaced - and that happens sooner than it would have otherwise, if they are used for business vs. occasional personal use. Any successful business owner takes all these things into consideration when setting pricing. If you think otherwise, you're living in dreamland... Oh, wait... you said you were making $60/hr with those fees. Guess that answers the "dreamland" issue!