Posted by JanetLA on 4/21/07 8:02am
Msg #186242

Opinions of RTC dates please

Good Morning all: let me present a question that I had a "battle" about for a signing yesterday. The signing was dated for the 19th and the borrowers were unavailable so we signed the 20th. Obviously I would not backdate anything. The question is the RTC date. The date of transaction on the RTC was still written as the 19th (signing on the 20th) but they gave the borrowers the extra day as though it was signed on the 20th. (RTC period ended on 24th). My position was that the transaction date needed to be changed. They insisted that the transaction date was not important, but the important thing was that the borrowers were given the proper time frame. I looked up the law and found that the recission period actually begins on the date of the notice or the date of the transaction, both the 20th in this case. I refused the signing, had many many calls from this company and they finally agreed to let me change it. Any opinions??

Reply by Sherri_mo on 4/21/07 8:08am
Msg #186244

I agree with you, the transaction date needs to be the date of signing.

Reply by LC/AZ on 4/21/07 8:42am
Msg #186247

Had one last night. Recission dates were preprinted for April 17th. I had the borrowers change it to April 20th and initial it. I always ask the borrower(s) to make the date change and to, please, make it legible. I used to write in the date for borrower(s) and would have them initial it, but I don't anymore. I was told that I am not named in the document and should let the people who are, make the changes. I hope I'm doing this right; not sure.

Reply by JanetLA on 4/21/07 10:12am
Msg #186249

right

I changed the transaction date and had borrowers initial, which was the whole problem for them. They insisted that the loan could not close if I changed it. blah blah blah. I told them to find another notary and that was the end of it for me. They kept having someone new call me. I faxed them the federal law and told them I would NOT leave it. They finally caved but after way too much aggravation.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/21/07 11:10am
Msg #186253

Re: right

Janet, I think it is "PAW" who has summarized that the "law" says it is the date of the transaction that bears the burden of the three day period count whether the RTC is correct or not.

I don't know if this is right or not because I don't study the laws about Regulation Z, Respa and so forth. That's lawyer business in Texas. Notary rules are my business and I stick to concerns with those. I realize notaries in La. are cut from a different cloth.

As a signing agent in Texas I do not believe it is my responsibility to assure the date on the RTC is anything other than one which is the decision of the hiring entity. However, if it is blank, I will count the days and put the date in the blank as per instructions of the hiring entity.

My chief concern is proper notarization and knowing where key information is in the documents to answer common questions.

Everyone have a great weekend. I am going to my niecelet's first birthday party. She's having a petting zoo party. I get to pet a "joey" today. Wow!

Reply by sue_pa on 4/21/07 11:28am
Msg #186257

agree 100%

I actually thought I was the only out here that feels that lenders and their compliance departments (i.e., lawyers), their outside compliance vendors (i.e. lawyers), and their underwriters know more than a little ole signing agent in the field. I have never nor will I ever read or attempt to interpret or apply any part of any federal statute to any document in a loan package. I'm not sure at what point 'signing agents' decided to practice law with this document and no other in the package.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/21/07 8:38pm
Msg #186298

Re: agree 100% - thanks sue, that means a lot

It's been my experience over the years that you have yet to be wrong on a message you have posted. You truly know the proper way to conduct yourself as a signing agent and I appreciate all that you have taught me personally.

As far as the laws, I have learned that laws which have to do with lending and property are some of the most complicated around. I know lots of other types of law practice work about other things as good or better than some lawyers but the more I work in the real estate and lending transaction law office the more I know how little I know.

Just when you think you know the ropes another nuance of the law rears its pretty head and proves you wrong. Where I work we do primarily loans which are in the millions. I am amazed at the intelligence of the young man I work directly for and his never ending patience in teaching me.

Of course, I never try to pretend I know the laws we work with nor do I try to learn them. And, I dang sure don't debate the law with him or tell him how it needs to be.

All I need to know is what documents he wants me to prepare and a set of loan instructions.

In our state, as I understand it a lawyer has to prepare lender legals. Therefore, when a hotshot pretend lawyer starts an argument with the real lawyer it's possible that the billing pad is coming out.

Signing agents really do need to learn to walk that line between knowledgeable and thinking they know it all. (Of course, JanetLA--this doesn't mean you, yours is a different situation.)

Reply by JanetLA on 4/21/07 10:42pm
Msg #186321

Signing agents-LOUISIANA

Things are certainly different here. I find it interesting that you can do things with clear cut rules that are spelt out for you. I really wish it were that simple here. In fact, we have another strange requirement, that I have heard (not sure of this) is unique to Louisiana. Any acts that involve immovable property are our responsibility to record within the specific time frame (different for every parish). If we did not prepare the docs, no different. It is no different if the docs were prepared by us or by the mortgage company. Therefore, if we don't have a release from that responsibility from the mtg company or borrowers or both, we can be held responsible if the very ones that are to record it fail to do so. Until recent legislation, even with a release from the mortgage company, that did not let us off the hook. The same mortgage company that had the release could sue us if THEY failed to record the docs and someone suffered because of it. Recent legislation allowed the release to protect notaries. It is much more complicated and we are allowed to prepare wills, trusts and mortgages without an attorney being involved. Strange rules here. Thanks to all for the input

Reply by PAW on 4/21/07 11:47am
Msg #186263

Re: right

>>> Janet, I think it is "PAW" who has summarized that the "law" says it is the date of the transaction that bears the burden of the three day period count whether the RTC is correct or not. <<<

I don't think I said that. Title 12 makes no mention of a "Transaction date" only the expiration date. Reg Z states:

"The notice shall identify the transaction or occurrence and clearly and conspicuously disclose the following:
(1) The retention or acquisition of a security interest in the consumer's principal dwelling.
(2) The consumer's right to rescind, as described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section.
(3) How to exercise the right to rescind, with a form for that purpose, designating the address of the creditor's place of business.
(4) The effects of rescission, as described in paragraph (d) of this section.
(5) The date the rescission period expires."

The transaction date as shown on the typical RTC form, is whatever the lender considers it to be. Most often, it is the date of signing, but for rescission purposes, I submit that it is immaterial, as the start of the rescission period is based on the criteria specifically stated in Reg Z.

"The consumer may exercise the right to rescind until midnight of the third business day following the occurrence described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section that gave rise to the right of rescission, delivery of the notice required by paragraph (b) of this section, or delivery of all material disclosures, whichever occurs last. If the required notice and material disclosures are not delivered, the right to rescind shall expire 3 years after the occurrence giving rise to the right of rescission, or upon transfer of all of the consumer's interest in the property, or upon sale of the property, whichever occurs first. "

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 4/21/07 12:47pm
Msg #186268

I concur with Paul. So long as the bwrs receive AT LEAST the

mandatory three business days RTC right, computed from the date that they
receive their coy of TIL ( if applicable ) and two copies each of RTC form
they the law has been complied with.
If they recieve more that threee busines days, that is not a problem if that is
the lenders desire.
A shortened RTC period could result in a loan voidable by the bwr after funding.
A lenthened RTC period would not.
I would not have had a problem leaving the transaction date as printed ,
if those were my instructions, so long as the final RTC date was accurately
computed, written and initailed.
Remember the golden rule, "the one with the gold makes the rules".
(so long as following those rules does not make you a law violater)
Leaving the transaction date as printed would be perfectly legal IMO

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/21/07 8:50pm
Msg #186300

Re: right

**I don't think I said that. Title 12 makes no mention of a "Transaction date" only the expiration date. Reg Z states:**

Okay, strike "transaction." Strike "PAW" summarized. Apparently I misunderstood whatever it was that I read in that context.

However, keep the part of my post about don't change the transaction date on the documents if the lender says not to.

Add this: I agree with Bob and sue's remarks about the ones up the chain being the ones who are responsible and knowledgeable.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 4/22/07 9:11am
Msg #186361

Responsible - Yes. Knowledgeable?????? n/m

Reply by Janet Sobers on 4/21/07 12:58pm
Msg #186269

Louisiana

So, yes, Louisiana is very different. We are obligated to ensure the docs and everything we notarize are correct. If they are not, then in fact any of the parties, INCLUDING the ones that incorrectly prepared the docs or the borrowers or the lender can hold us responsible for the form. In Louisiana, we are under civil law, and notaries can prepare ALL mortgage docs without a title company or an attorney. It is indeed a fine line for us, maybe more so than for other states regarding the practice of law. (which is one of the reasons I went to law school). In any case, the three choices of when the RTC period starts are all the same in MY CASE. I truly (still, after all of your interesting opinions) believe that it needed to be changed. Thanks for all the input!

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 4/22/07 11:10pm
Msg #186455

The borrower can always be given more days than allowed; and some companies give more than 3 days on the Right to Cancel.

Reply by Les_CO on 4/21/07 10:09am
Msg #186248

The RTC runs from when the borrowers are given notice, of said RTC, whether they sign anything or not. In your case (depending on the form) I would have changed the "notice" date and had the borrowers initial.

Reply by Stoli on 4/21/07 11:23am
Msg #186254

Just an opinion, but..

I believe the top date on the Notice of Right to Cancel is the tranaction date, and MUST be the same date the borrower received the Federal Truth in Lending and MUST match the date the Deed of Trust was signed.

My understanding of the bottom date is that the law provides for no less than three business days, but the individual lenders may allow/gift the borrower(s) any number of additional days. Town and Country used to allow their borrowers ten (10) calandar days. Who changes the date doesn't seem as important as securing the borrowers' initials next to the date change.

You guys will probably boil me in oil, but if I have time, I review the documents prior to my signing. If the dates are incorrect, I use Adobe and strike through the incorrect date, type in the correct date and have the borrowers initial at the signing. I also type the acknowledgement for the DOT, Signature Affidavit and NORTC just for a cleaner document. Now you make me wonder if this is inappropriate. What do you think?

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/21/07 11:24am
Msg #186255

Re: Just an opinion, but..

**If the dates are incorrect, I use Adobe and strike through the incorrect date, type in the correct date and have the borrowers initial at the signing. I also type the acknowledgement for the DOT, Signature Affidavit and NORTC just for a cleaner document. Now you make me wonder if this is inappropriate. What do you think?**

IMHO - UPL.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/21/07 11:25am
Msg #186256

UPL - the part about using Adobe...not typing

acks.

Reply by Stoli on 4/21/07 11:33am
Msg #186260

Brenda, what do you do with stale-dated NORTC?

Do you leave the document date, or do you change the date to the transaction date? You're absolutely correct that this is the only document I have ever been asked by Title or Escrow to change the date.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/21/07 8:18pm
Msg #186296

Re: Brenda, what do you do with stale-dated NORTC?

Handwriting is what we are authorized to do in my experience. Thus, my answer. Editing documents via Adobe could muck up post-closing procedures, hence my uneducated opinion that it is UPL.

Perspective from up the food chain...
Since I work in the world of RE transactions and legal document preparation I know that if I sent documents out to a signing agent and then got a stack back where the dates had been changed by a computer it would confuse me if I had expected it to be done in ink and initialed.

Since my time is billed out at $80 an hour (Note: I said "billed" not that I am paid that!) where I work it could be that someone could cause a client (Lenders or developers) to run up a sizeable bill while I tried to make sense of what happened at the closing location. Without clear directions I would never expect someone at the closing location to electronically change documents the attorney and I had prepared so that the final draft did not look like the copy/version on my computer.

Switching over to a signing agent perspective...
In Texas I have never been to a signing agent appointment where the NORTC date is different than the signing date unless lender or title instructions were included to change it or to leave it alone. In my day job I seldom produce or see a TIL or RTC because we very seldom prepare documents for a signer who is borrowing on their homesteaded property as a means of refi, modification, or equity line.

Use handwriting and be neat would be my suggestion.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/21/07 11:29am
Msg #186258

Re: Just an opinion, but..

What I think is that 'signing agents' like you are the ones who cause problems for the rest of us who know our place and position in the process.

Reply by Stoli on 4/21/07 11:45am
Msg #186262

Read the instruction sheet for the NORTC. n/m

Reply by JanetLA on 4/21/07 1:18pm
Msg #186270

To whom do you direct your opinion?

I don't think I ever give anyone the impression that I speak for anyone other than myself. I NEVER cause any problems for "signing agents like you". Hopefully you are not directing that at me.... Have a good weekend.

Reply by JanetLA on 4/21/07 1:20pm
Msg #186271

above message meant for sue n/m

Reply by sue_pa on 4/21/07 3:31pm
Msg #186274

Re: To whom do you direct your opinion?

posted under Stoli's thread and directed to her. Comment was made about going into lender docs and somehow making changes to their printed documents - meaning the RTC dates. If for some reason they must be changed, it should be done by hand - not by someone in the field altering the documents via computer.

Reply by Katrina Arnaud on 4/21/07 12:04pm
Msg #186266

Instructions from the NORTC


INSTRUCTION SHEET DATING & INITIALING THE NOTICE OF RIGHT TO CANCEL
Prior to or at the time the Notice of Right to Cancel is presented to the Borrowerfor signature two(2) dates must be added to the form.
A. Under item number 1, please write in the date on which the legal documents arebeing signed.
B. In the last paragraph inside the box, please write in the "cancellation date"Remember this date must be three business days from the date the legal documents are signed. Business days are Monday through Saturday, excluding legal holidays.
After the dates have been added to the Notice, the Borrower must initial both dates(A & B).


SAMPLE:
NOTICE OF RIGHT TO CANCEL
Date:
Loan No: Borrower:
Property Address:
YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL:
You are entering into a new transaction to increase the amount of credit previously provided to you. Your home is the security for this new transaction. You have a legal right under federal law to cancel this transaction, without cost, within three business days from whichever ofthe following events occurs last:

1. the date of the transaction, which is A ; or

2. the date you received your Truth-in-Lending disclosures; or

3. the date you received this notice of your right to cancel.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/21/07 3:34pm
Msg #186275

Re: Instructions from the NORTC

the language in your private message is quite charming and lady-like. By the way, just so you know, the RTC and TIL are federal forms, not CA.

Reply by PAW on 4/21/07 4:15pm
Msg #186276

Federal form?

As far as I know, there are no federal guidelines, examples or repository for the format, style and layout of either notification. The "forms" are generated by computer LOS software (Magic Docs, Calyx, etc.), designed by form designers. The only federal requirements are what must included in the notification and that the notification must be in writing.

I have seen many variations to the RTC and TIL over the years. However, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac usually design, print and provide the generally accepted versions of most commonly used forms, but lenders are not required to use them.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/22/07 8:51am
Msg #186356

Re: Federal form?

No one was talking about the actual format. She implied in her private message that the TIL and RTC are CA specific and since I don't PRATICE in CA I should ...


I truly believe that if any lender found out a 'signing agent' was somehow doctoring up their forms, whether innocently trying to 'help' or not, we will be sliding down a slippery slope. Why in the world do we draw a single line (not scribble), no white out, etc.? So everyone can see a change. If a 'signing agent' goes in and somehow changes the actual printing on a document so that it's 'neat and clean', how in the world will the lender know that this person hasn't changed all sorts of other things. By the way, being basically computer illiterate other than the very basics, I've got no idea in the world how this could be accomplished.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/22/07 9:09am
Msg #186359

Re: Federal form?

**how in the world will the lender know that this person hasn't changed all sorts of other things. By the way, being basically computer illiterate other than the very basics, I've got no idea in the world how this could be accomplished.**

sue, Just for interest you might want to read Msg #166828 wherein TitleGal outlines what happens when you don't use the exact language "required" so that someone can pick apart the meaning of it.

Adobe full versions (Acrobat) can edit PDFs if they are not locked down by added security means so they cannot be edited without a password.