Posted by Joe Ewing on 4/14/07 10:36pm
Msg #185274

Properly in Georgia signer in California

Title says docs must be signed in front of Attorney. Signer is in San Diego, CA. Does the signer have to contact a California attorney or can a Notary Public (NSA) do the signing?

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/14/07 11:04pm
Msg #185276

Joe, I'm pulling for what Title says. They are the ones insuring the title to the property. Their rules...property rules not notary rules in this case IMHO.

Reply by Joe Ewing on 4/14/07 11:19pm
Msg #185281

I have done several other signings for this real estate investor who is personally known to me, on properties located in Florida. But this is the first property she is purchasing in Georgia. First the title company (located in Tennessee) told her that the loan couldn't be signed on the weekend as per Georgia law. Then they emailed her last night saying that it could. Then today another email saying that she had to use a Lawyer who is also a notary.

Reply by DogmongerCA on 4/14/07 11:18pm
Msg #185280

For what it is worth, I tried four different times to sign

a person from Ca for a Georgia property last month through IREP. Four different times, the attorney failed to show. I was told that a attorney must be present at all properties recording in the State of Georgia. Good luck on getting one to show....

Reply by Joe Ewing on 4/14/07 11:22pm
Msg #185282

Re: For what it is worth, I tried four different times to sign

I have a friend in my surf club who is a lawyer and a signing agent. I will refer her if I need to.

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 4/14/07 11:47pm
Msg #185284

Re: For what it is worth, I tried four different times to sign

Joe
I have done signing in Calif for a couple of Attorney only states and I have never had a problem. We just have to pay attention to Calif notary laws. Just a suggestion from a friend.

Reply by Joe Ewing on 4/14/07 11:57pm
Msg #185285

Re: For what it is worth, I tried four different times to sign

Thanks Joan. I also have done signings in attorney only states and this issue never came up. I will figure it out and follow up on the message board.

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 4/15/07 12:21am
Msg #185287

Re: For what it is worth, I tried four different times to sign

Joe is one of the nice guys that over the last several years has helped so many notaries.

We really owe Sylvia, Janet, Joe, Brenda, Paw, Bob, so many thank yous!! Nice people!

Reply by PAW on 4/15/07 5:20am
Msg #185292

Re: For what it is worth, I tried four different times to si

Since FL boarders on GA, we get a fair share of closings on GA property. Only once have I had title insist an attorney do the closing. In FL, NSA's (non-attorney) can do the signing, but within GA only attorney-NSA's can. (See GA UPL Advisory 2003-2 - http://www.gabar.org/programs/unlicensed_practice_of_law/upl_advisory_opinions/#2003-2)

This opinion does not address signings/closings performed outside the borders of GA. It also states that the attorney who does perform the signing/closing must be a licensed member of the GA bar. It may be difficult to find an attorney in non-bordering locations that are members of the GA bar as well as the local state bar.

As was previously mentioned, it is really title's call as to whether or not a non-attorney can conduct the signing.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/15/07 8:50am
Msg #185296

Re: For what it is worth, I tried four different times to si

Okay, I guess I am the only one who sees a problem pushing the envelope on this one.

Reply by Dave_CA on 4/15/07 9:08am
Msg #185297

I have only done one

signing for a GA property but in that one we had a GA attorney on the phone.
He said he only had to explain the part about the borrower giving up certain rights under GA law.
The signed docs were returned to his office so I guess he signed off on whatever was necessary and then they went to title.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/15/07 9:23am
Msg #185298

Re: I have only done one

Dave...I have done a few as I'm very close to the Ga. line and the BO's are up here on vacation. During the few that I've done the Ga. Attorney is on the phone with the BO's and yep, he's gotta sign off, has a document in the package stating such.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/15/07 11:45am
Msg #185307

Re: I have only done one

Dave, what you and SueW/Tn at I get with have said makes perfectly good sense to me and seems the way that attorney only state's closings should be handled--by the book of the laws where the property is located.

Two things come to mind for me on this thread.

1) Why would we want to get into a questionable situation for such little money? The occasional Ga. closing won't make or break a notary.

2) If it is possibly problematic doesn't a sense of professionalism imply that we want to do no harm to the borrower's transaction even if we can "get by" with it, "pass Go and collect our $200?" Obviously Ga. attorneys are serious about their turf and we don't know what things are brewing on the home front over what they call "witness only" closings.

(And, thanks Joan, for the kind words.)

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/15/07 11:47am
Msg #185308

Re: I have only done one-correction...

Mumbo jumbo: "Dave, what you and SueW/Tn at I get with have said ..."

Should be: Dave, what you and SueW/Tn have said ..."

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/15/07 11:55am
Msg #185309

TY Bren

I have received numerous calls to handle GA BO's that are coming up here for vacation and when I notify the hiring entity that GA is an AOS I hear "oops, we'll get back to you" and sometimes I hear more, sometimes not. The problem isn't with the states rules and regs but rather with the hiring entities that know less than us. With so few AOS you would think that those that hire us would have a red flag go off when they gather up that business! There is no telling how many of those loans get signed outside the box and whether they fly or not is something we never hear about. I do know that on one signing this happened:

Ga. SS company hired me (that's rich eh?) and I met and signed the BO's with an attorney on the phone. There were docs in the package for the attorney to sign and I too ASSUMED these docs would be forwarded to him. Two days later Title called me and told me I "neglected to sign attorney docs", I told them I was hired by XYZ Signing Service and the signing took place in Tennessee, a non-attorney state with a GA. attorney on the phone. She was NOT A HAPPY CAMPER but was madder at the SS than anyone else. I gave her the attorney's phone number and name and that was the last I heard about it. That tells me there are definite repurcussions that we most likely never hear about.

A piece of advice: IF you're signing an attorney only state, at the very least bring it to the attention of the hiring entity on paper and keep a hard copy for yourself.

Reply by Lawyer_GA on 4/15/07 4:07pm
Msg #185335

I'm going to address one thing that I've seen in several responses to your question. Apparently there are instances in which Georgia attorneys are assisting in the closing of Georgia properties over the phone with out-of-state borrowers. Unless I'm seriously mistaken, that's a big "no no!" It constitutes the possible unauthorized practice of law unless the Georgia attorney on the phone just happens to be licensed to practice law in the other state in question. Just my 2 cents.

Reply by dickb/wi on 4/15/07 4:50pm
Msg #185339

BINGO!....even an atty can....

do upl......if they would want a wi atty to close the deal [assuming the borrower is in wi] it would cost them aprox $500 if they could find one to do it.....real estate brokers in wi are allowed to practice a minimal amount of real estate law in wi....we can prepare deeds and other docs [however we can't charge for the preperation] we also do a lot of the closings.... when we do forms how ever we must use the state appvd forms..........

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/15/07 5:09pm
Msg #185340

Lawyer_GA, Don't keep us in suspense...

What is the correct answer to the question at hand?

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/15/07 5:37pm
Msg #185342

"out of state borrowers"...is that the same meaning as residents of Georgia on vacation? I know that may sound silly and I'll explain once I hear the reply

Reply by Joe Ewing on 4/15/07 5:57pm
Msg #185344

Ok let me get this straight because somebody has been doing this since GA became an AOS so how is it done?

How does a person who lives in California purchase property in Georgia without physically being in Georgia to sign the purchase papers?

Is this like buying a condo in Mexico where you have to appoint a Mexican Attorney as your Attorney in Fact (POA with a Apostille) to sign the papers for you?

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/15/07 7:25pm
Msg #185353

ok...let me see if I understand you...you come in here, make a corrective post regarding something we've discussed for the past week...your signature tells us you obviously should be someone that has an inside track on correct information and then you don't follow up??? Are your 2 cents based on law, legal precedent or common sense? I just have a problem following your logic but it wouldn't be the first time I've been in disagreement with the powers that be. I'm not sure how legal residents of the state of Georgia, sitting at a cafe in Tennessee, signing documents for their Georgia property, talking to their Georgia attorney on the phone can wind up having an attorney practicing UPL. It's a wireless society we live in that has no borders. Are you inferring that a Tennessee Attorney has more knowledge of Georgia real estate laws than a Georgia attorney? I sincerely would appreciate more feedback from you on this.

Reply by hcampersFL on 4/16/07 7:33am
Msg #185394

Sue I read the response as a Ca. Att doing a Ga closing over the phone would be practicing UPL.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/16/07 7:52am
Msg #185398

Good Morning Beverly

I know that Lawyer_Ga is replying to the original thread BUT he's replying in the abstract...if you re-read the reply there's no mention of what state is involved. My $64,000 question may sound like I'm looking for the right answer for MY state BUT his reply is so pointed at UPL that there has to be "one size fits all" answer here. The legal community does not make exceptions for bordering states etc., it either IS or it ISN'T UPL for the attorney. I would just like clarification.

Reply by hcampersFL on 4/16/07 8:01am
Msg #185400

Re: Good Morning Beverly

I think that most atty's in bordering states have a license to practice in both states. Here in Pensacola we are so close to Ala. most lawyers, real estate, beauticians, etc are licensed in both states. The way I read the point was that if the lawyer on the phone wasn't licensed in Ga. then it is upl.
Now maybe I'm missing the point? I wouldn't doubt it. It has been a long weekend.

Reply by marko727 on 4/16/07 10:24am
Msg #185423

Re: Good Morning Beverly

The Supreme Court of Georgia deems it wise that every borrower of real property in the State of Georgia be advised BY AN ATTORNEY LICENSED TO PRACTICE LAW IN THE STATE OF GEORGIA of the legal ramifications of the foreclosure procedures in this State, to wit: that you, the borrower, are waiving your rights to use the court system to stop foreclosure for non-payment. The form is called "Waiver of Borrower's Rights". To insure that the borrower has been so advised, there is another form called "Closing Attorney's Affidavit", that the attorney signs, and has NOTARIZED. It is irrelevant that the borrower's are physically out-of-state.
You need to contact a Georgia attorney, who can advise the borrowers OVER THE PHONE of the rights they are giving up, then the attorney, in his/her office in Georgia, prepares the Closing Attorney Affidavit, has it notarized, and overnights the form to you, the out of state notary, for inclusion in the package.

Reply by Lawyer_GA on 4/16/07 3:11pm
Msg #185482

Re: Good Morning Beverly

marko727 - How do you get around the fact that the Closing Attorney's Affidavit for the Waiver of Borrower's Rights says that you reviewed the documents with the borrower "in closing the above loan" if you were not, in fact, present at the closing? When the closing occurs in Georgia, the attorney is required to be physically present at the closing... What makes you think that your physical presence is no longer required and that you can close the loan "over the phone" just because the borrower is outside of the state? How is that any different from sending out a notary and closing the loan "over the phone" here? Unless I'm mistaken, even the great state of Georgia has a duty to extend full faith and credit to another state's laws -- in other words, to allow loans to be closed in those states as those states see fit. I realize that some title companies/lenders feel more comfortable with having out-of-state borrowers sign before attorneys for properties that lie in so-called attorney states. That's understandable and probably makes the loans easier to record within Georgia. But I, for one, would refuse to close a loan "over the phone" where I've had no opportunity to review the borrower's ID or to determine whether there's anything shady about the closing that I might have detected had I been physically present. Please be kind enough to point me toward the Georgia statute and/or State Bar ethics provision that suggests that closing a loan over the phone is either recommended or even suggested.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/16/07 3:15pm
Msg #185484

Re: Good Morning Beverly - FINALLY - some info on AO states

worth reading. Marko and Lawyer - I'll be reading every word! Thank you for this debate.

Reply by marko727 on 4/16/07 9:54pm
Msg #185547

Re: Good Morning Beverly

Docs can be reviewed with the borrower "in closing the above loan" regardless of whether the parties are in the same room, as long as they are reviewing copies of the same doc. A closing attorney can execute the affidavit without ever having physically seen the borrowers.
You do, however, make an interesting point in noting that, if the closing was to take place in Georgia, it would not be permissable to send a notary to the signing, and to have an attorney merely phone up to discuss the waiver form with the borrower. The fact that it IS permissable to do so when the signing is out of state is simply a matter of practicality. The Supreme Court of Georgia recognizes the undue burden of requiring borrowers to literally pay a Georgia attorney to travel to a far flung locale to effectuate a closing, so it accepts the fact that a Georgia attorney is not "reasonably available" in other states, and allows the attorney to participate from a separate situs, and proceed over the phone, by conference call, or by means of other communication channels.
Sorry I don't have the legal cite for you right now, but I'll retrieve it and post it for you later if you'd like...