Posted by staceycc99 on 4/23/07 10:10pm
Msg #186622

Tattling on a local notary

I took out a home equity loan last week and a local notary came to my house to do the signing. I don't think she knew that I was also a NSA. She showed up in jeans and sneakers. She didn't check 2 ID's like my state requires. She didn't use 2 witnesses on the mortgage like my state requires and she didn't leave us with completed RTC. I don't think I should have had to tell her these things because what if I was just a regular borrower who didn't know these things. People like this make my job harder because when I tell borrowers about these state required things, I always hear about how the other notary didn't make me do that. I kind of would like to rat her out to the company but I don't want to sound like I'm being a tattle tale. I would appreciate opinions. Thanks.

Reply by ZeeCA on 4/23/07 10:16pm
Msg #186624

so, does this mean in your state the loan you signed is not

complete? or she is makes it look like the papers she turns in have been closed legally and correctly?

Reply by Stamper_WI on 4/23/07 10:18pm
Msg #186626

Thats a hard decision to make. The folks most interested in her activities would be the State. Also the lenders and TC's. Many do not turn in other notaries because of the hassle. Bottom line aren't you glad it was really you signing those doc's? If it hadn't been you, she sure wouldn't be able to tell you who signed it. (Hint: they would be the ones with the money. You are the one with the lein)
It would be interesting to see what the final docs look like. Maybe you could request a copy of the signed documents and see if 2 witness's magically appeared when you weren't looking.
I am not being mean more tongue in cheek. If it was me I'd be all over it since it is my asset at stake.

Reply by jojo_MN on 4/23/07 10:24pm
Msg #186629

One more thought.

I agree with Stamper. You really need to make sure that your loan won't be held held up by her mistakes also!

Reply by jojo_MN on 4/23/07 10:20pm
Msg #186627

I wouldn't do the "tattling"; but if you were a new notary, wouldn't you like to know that you were doing something wrong? There are two ways you could look at it. One--if she makes a number of mistakes, you won't need to worry about competition from her for very long. Two--it could make you look bad for not trying to help out a fellow notary in need.

That is a tough "Scruples" question. Only you can decide what is right. IMHO.

Reply by staceycc99 on 4/23/07 10:33pm
Msg #186633

I know she isn't a new notary. I believe she has been doing this for over 4 years. I think for the witnesses, she uses herself ( which is allowed) and then has someone she knows sign as the 2nd witness. The problem is, I don't want to make myself look bad, but it ticks me off knowing she made a really good fee and she didn't do the job correctly.

Reply by Cheryl_NV on 4/23/07 10:35pm
Msg #186634

I think you should let someone know what happened, it might get you more work.

Reply by Cheryl_NV on 4/23/07 10:35pm
Msg #186635

I think you should let someone know what happened, it might get you more work.

Reply by jojo_MN on 4/23/07 10:39pm
Msg #186637

Oh, that's right. It is your loan--you paid for her services. You do have a right to have it done correctly the same as any of the borrowers you sign.

I still would point out to her the correct way to do a signing as tactfully as possible. You never know--she might turn out to be your best friend. I know I consider a local notary as one of my best friends now that I at first only thought of as competition.!!!!

Reply by Roger_OH on 4/23/07 11:46pm
Msg #186641

Not doing an RTC correctly or leaving less copies isn't a notarial act. But adding a witness signature who wasn't present after the fact on a recordable document is fraud - that's a FELONY. Did she bother to swear you in for any jurats in the package? That's another no-no, and in my state you lose your commission for not doing it.

As long as you allow her to continue doing this, you're part of the problem of perpetuating her incompetence, and doing a disservice to the public she's supposedly sworn to serve. Your $100K loan today, someone else's $500K tomorrow.

If she violated her oath, then be offended and turn her butt in to your county bar association or SOS through their notary complaint system. Do you really think she deserves to have the same title of Notary Public after her name that you do? We will never raise the bar unless we police ourselves.

Reply by Becca_FL on 4/24/07 12:44am
Msg #186645

Re: Tattling on a local notary...Thank you, Roger,

You said what I was thinking. May I further add....This MoMo is your competition? Why put up with this?

Don't feel bad, just do the right thing.

Reply by hcampersFL on 4/24/07 7:12am
Msg #186655

Roger is right. You don't need a friend that isn't ethical

and you probably don't want one anyway. I wouldn't call her at all. I would just right a letter and send it to the SOS and a copy to the title company so they are kept in the loop.
Then drop it. You can't do more than that even if you wanted to.

Reply by Stamper_WI on 4/24/07 2:06pm
Msg #186733

Awwww shucks! n/m

Reply by Stamper_WI on 4/24/07 2:06pm
Msg #186734

Re: Awwww shucks!Meant for JoJo n/m

Reply by Larry/Ca on 4/23/07 10:44pm
Msg #186638

Are you required to enter.....

the ID info in a journal? If nobody comes by to fix this I would find out if the witnesses signatures did suddenly appear. If they did then it is either forgery or fraud and this person wasn't simply a notary making mistakes, they need to be rooted from this business.

Reply by MelissaCT on 4/24/07 9:50pm
Msg #186819

Journals NOT required, but recommended n/m

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 4/24/07 8:53am
Msg #186669

Think I would approach it a little differently. For starters, I'd write a lengthy letter to the title company explaining what was and wasn't done and pointing out the pitfalls and potential liability to them. Then I would pitch myself directly to the title company. Whether you want to get involved at the state level is only a decision you can make. I would be willing to bet that the TC would probably be getting in touch with her explaining why she shouldn't expect any more work from their direction.

Reply by Brad/AZ on 4/24/07 9:13am
Msg #186672

You think that's bad? I know a local notary who is out doing signings with a suspended commission. I'd love to tattle on her to the SOS, but I just don't think it's my place.

Reply by Joan_OH on 4/24/07 9:30am
Msg #186674

Unbelieveable! I'm willing to bet she is just getting the signatures and some abscent notary is signing and placing their stamp on the docs - maybe someone at the title company. You'd have a hard time proving this one without pulling borrowers into it as witnesses. If this notary is stamping docs, you would have proof in the recordings.

Joan-OH

Reply by MelissaCT on 4/24/07 9:58am
Msg #186683

Wonder if it was the same one that did one for me. I knew what company she worked for because they originally called me to do the signing...had to decline, since I can't notarize for myself (LOL -- that happened twice, BTW). Yes, I did call here hiring entity to complain about her performance. She didn't even have any notary supplies with her!! Said she completes at home & her husband usually acts as witness. Funny thing is that my deed never made it for recording & I had to re-execute the deed 5 months later. Wonder where it went?

Anyway, I hope it's not the same person (that would mean she's been getting away with this stuff for years!) -- then again, I hope there's not more out there like her!

She was the one I'd mentioned before that called me from McDonalds to say she was late because she "had to stop to eat or she'd pass out". What choice did I have at that point, she was doing what she wanted regardless of what I had planned. Come to find out, she'd scheduled 3 signing appointments 1/2 hr apart, that involved 45 min drive time just to get from one to another. What a joke!!

I'd call the LO/lender/TC & complain. Shouldn't make a difference if you're a SA or just a "regular" borrower. Bad service is bad service.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 4/24/07 11:31am
Msg #186702

I agree, Melissa. . .

Why is it "tattling" when it's a notary but "expecting better" when it's a sales clerk or customer service rep??!! Bad service is bad service.

Reply by trnsa_IL on 4/24/07 10:17am
Msg #186686

Just curious...

Did you offer her two ID's and she only checked one? Did you provide two witnesses and she did not utilize them on the mortgage? If this was my loan, I would have had the proper ID ready and the witnesses available. Then, when she dropped the ball and failed to do her job properly, I would have had to say something, not in an ugly or demeaning way. I simply would have offered the other ID (if necessary, "I have always needed two forms of ID to have anything notarized", questioned the non use of witnesses and made the phone call myself if I had to. The bottom line is that I do know what is expected, and it is my loan.

While sloppy work is unacceptable; not knowing or following state notarial law is unexcusable.


As for the jeans and sneakers...Don't get me started!

Reply by MelissaCT on 4/24/07 11:13am
Msg #186698

Re: Just curious...

The last couple times of doing my own refis, I've had to make sure a witness was used & press for it. Once was by the notary I described above (she didn't want to use my witness, but I pressed her to) and the 2nd time, was by an attorney. Both times, I had to "make them" use a witness.

Reply by AR_razormac on 4/24/07 12:19pm
Msg #186717

Re: Just curious...

I am an new notary still working on getting ny nsa, and I can see the moral implications of this woman. Not turning her in to at least the lo or title company is essentially the same as letting your friends drive drunk. Sitting there shaking your head at thier doomed behavior and not stopping it until someone really gets hurt or they hurt themselves. I agree in the professions I have worked in policing your own is best. I was reading in an ebook on NSA and it stated that we should help one another in growing and learning this bussiness. I am sure that many of you had someone most likely another agent train or guide you through you learning stages. Don't see it as training the enemy rather helping a collegue in need. Hope i didnt rant too much.

Reply by rengel/CA on 4/24/07 1:17pm
Msg #186727

Re: Just curious...

No, I have not had another agent train me or guide me through my learning stages. I became a notary first, and I studied and learned my notary laws for my state backwards and forwards. I am first and foremost a NOTARY PUBLIC. I was then approached by a loan officer friend to help her at a signing since she isn't a notary. I learned about this industry and I researched the viability of this as a business venture. I studied loan documents and discussed them with my loan officer friend. I researched the equipment I would have to buy, how much I would need to make a profit and then decided to enter the industry. I came upon this forum during my research phase and read, took copious notes.
I did not ask anyone "how to start in this business", I researched on my own. I did not ask questions online about how to notarize a document, I read my State's Notary Public handbook. I did not ask online how to file my taxes, I asked my CPA.
And guess what? I am successful at what I do. I am filing my taxes without fear that some nimrod on a computer gave me bogus information about filing my taxes. I do not fear that I took someone else's off the wall advice for doing a loan signing because it's MY commission on the line here, not theirs.
I have read many of the Notary and Signing Agent forums on the web and have seen some really bad information being put out there. I have seen people give information to others who, if the take that information, can land in jail.
I trust my own education. I hope you do the same.
My .02

Reply by MelissaCT on 4/24/07 12:03pm
Msg #186714

Re: Just curious...

It's up to the SA to notify the borrower(s) of witness/ID requirements most times. LO's don't know the recording or notarial laws.

In a case like this, it's obvious the notary either (1 doesn't know what they're doing or (2 doesn't care to know. Either way, they're a danger to themselves, potential clients & borrowers. Why offer the required ID & witnesses? A "normal" borrower wouldn't.

Reply by Paul_IL on 4/24/07 12:17pm
Msg #186716

Re: Just curious...

MelissaCT,

It is not totally up to the NSA to notify the borrowers of witness requirements and ID requirements. The title company should have made the borrower aware of the ID requirements and the need for an additional witness.

Now comes the REAL common sense issue regarding the original posters actions. What she did was Stupid! Since she is an NSA and aware of the requirements she should have had the 2 ID's out and ready on the table and also had her witness present as this was her loan and her money and her interest rate on the line! "Did not think it her place to say something" if not her place then whose was it?

She should have made sure it was done right and then called her lender and complained very loudly. Bet she could have gotten a settlement fee reduction from the lender.

Now all she has is a mortgage that cannot be legally recorded and since most lenders will not accept a mortgage with a different date from the other loan docs it will most likely need to be signed again at a potentially higher rate. She will have no cause to complain as she was aware what was being done was illegal and could not be recorded but let it happen anyway!

Reply by MelissaCT on 4/24/07 12:48pm
Msg #186723

Paul_IL, I don't understand your last paragraph

it was MY deed that never made it for recording & I had to re-sign 5 months later. By that time, I had married & my name had been changed, so I signed with my married name & FKA on the new deed, but my loan was still in force, no redraw occured & the rate was the rate.

I've seen recorded deeds that had the same person signed twice as witness on it. I've seen others with only 1 witness. So as for "cannot be legally recorded", I'd not make that statement as fact without being an attorney who is practicing real estate law in CT. We can only speculate about what is and is not recordable. We should, however, know the notary laws under which we operate and have an idea what is required in our state for recording of deeds in order to follow proper procedure. It's not our place to speculate on what will or will not record nor to determine the effect of the outcome of a document signed.

Reply by Paul_IL on 4/24/07 1:07pm
Msg #186725

Re: Paul_IL, I don't understand your last paragraph

Since according to CT law 2 witness are required for the mortgage it should be really easy to understand this is per the CT state website. Since the notary can be one of the witnesses that leaves one witness remaining. Should the local county recorders office choose to record a mortgage without the 2 required witnesses then I guess that is up to them but it is still technically illegal.

A lost deed is a different situation. This happens quite often which is why many lenders are now requiring 2 or 3 original copies of the mortgage or deed to be signed at the closing. That way the lender can just record one of the other originals should one be lost.

Yours was a different situation in regards to the loan and had you read carefully you would have noticed I was speaking to the original posters situation of letting something she knew to be improper occur just because she did not feel it her place to say something because a "normal" borrower would have not known it to be improper!

Reply by MelissaCT on 4/24/07 9:46pm
Msg #186817

Thanks for clarifying

I still don't believe it's our call as to whether a deed is recordable. I completely undestand that CT law requires 2 witness to a deed and I inform the borrower of the requirement.

Recorded deeds without 2 witnesses are "defective" titles, but an attorney would be better suited to make determinations about the effect of such.

Reply by Ndwa on 4/24/07 12:50pm
Msg #186724

I'm amazed

This is not the first time I read post like this. How could you/anyone actually let an SA walked out the door with your loan knowing it wasn't done right? Not only are you sitting worry now, but you also don't have any proof that a witness was there to back your tattling.

Reply by MelissaCT on 4/24/07 10:03pm
Msg #186825

Re: I'm amazed

Happens more than you'd think. In my case, I insisted on having my witness sign as witness -- but the person who was conducting the signing is supposed to be in control of the transaction, not the borrower, even if the borrower is a NSA. In my case, she balked at using a witness, but I absolutely insisted & was prepared to not sign without it.

I've heard countless times from borrowers that they didn't need to provide a witness the last time. My response: Look closely at your release of lien when you get it back & see the witness who wasn't there's signature on the document.

Reply by MelissaCT on 4/24/07 9:57pm
Msg #186824

Re: Just curious...

In an ideal world, the NSA shouldn't be the one to inform of witness requirements. But this isn't. I once had a LO tell the borrower that a witness wasn't required after they hemmed & hawed about it, having been informed by me. The witness arrived a bit early & the LO on the phone told the borrower that it wasn't needed & sent the witness away. When I asked the borrower for their witness, they told me the story & said that they wouldn't be able to get a witness "at the last minute". I simply restated that CT law requires 2 & I could only act as one. They ended up coming up with a witness after a bit of scrambling. CLEARLY, the LO/TC doesn't know the laws of every state.