Posted by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 7:24am
Msg #208505

Courtesy to the Borrower

Wouldn't it be a courtesy to the borrower to leave with them the definitions (one sentence if possible) of typical documents found in most packages? That way when or if they actually go back over these docs, especially during the 3 day RTC period, they will be able to articulate these to someone else if necessary. The language is such that most of the borrowers don't have a clue without our enlightenment during the closing. There is one company that provides the notary with a couple of sheets that boils the cabbage down for us to convey to the borrower. I am going to copy this and start giving this to my borrowers as I know that they will not retain all the info that occurs during the closing. Also possibly with this being offered to the borrower, they may be less inclined to want to read the docs during the closing. This does not do away with our "spiel" concerning each doc. The amount of pages is generally overwhelming to most borrowers and this simple explaination on paper to leave with them may take a little anxiety out of the closing. Does anyone else provide this?

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 7:31am
Msg #208507

no...I go over each doc and explain what it is. My borrowers are not 'generally overwhelmed" with the number of papers we go thru. I believe it's all about how you present the package.
If I have a huge package I will say something like "I'm sure you'll have writer's cramp' or something likewise to ease into the signing. Many people will not read during the closing if you tell them what the doc is beforehand.
I don't know that any experienced notary would want to leave a sheet of paper with definitions.

Reply by PJM/MI on 8/30/07 7:33am
Msg #208508

For the borrower's package, I put all of that in a legal size folder. On the OUTSIDE of the envelope, I write down:
Amount to/from bo on the HUD.
amt of Note, int. rate, first payment date,
And then I put the RTC under the HUD on their copy.

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 7:35am
Msg #208510

that sounds complicated PJM...I don't write anything anywhere, but I do the HUD first, if there's any problems that is where they'll generally show up. After that doc everything else should fall in line.

Reply by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 7:48am
Msg #208513

This courtesy is not meant to be a shortcut during the closing as my borrowers are always satisfied with my explaination. As stated, since I don't believe the majority of my borrowers could articulate these docs upon review later , why not make it simple for them when they are alone after the fact. Just a courtesy as this is a courtesy driven business.

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 8:01am
Msg #208515

courtesy driven business???

the simple fact that you are over looking is that when you go to witness their sigs and identify them as the borrowers, your job is done. Courtesy is extended in the explanation of the docs. I will not leave any paper with definitions period, and you shouldn't either.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 8/30/07 12:28pm
Msg #208607

Re: courtesy driven business??? What does that mean???

Every business is a courtesy driven business. Why would you want to add to what is laready in the package and what if you make a mistake. How about if your definitions are not the legal definition. I never coujld undrestand why people in this business try to continually expand their liability without an attendant increase in fees. The job is simple and any embellishment can come back and bite you where it hurts: your pocketbook!

Reply by Charles_Ca on 8/30/07 12:30pm
Msg #208611

I've got to cut out this linear thinking and read the thread n/m

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 10:15am
Msg #208547

perhaps you need to re-read the entire thread, suggestions were given and they were the best in this realm, until Ms snoopy got ugly and argumentative

Reply by sue_pa on 8/30/07 7:42am
Msg #208512

Do you understand what your role in the process is? You personally do not provide anything to the borrower. If they need the 'cabbage boiled down' they are to call their lender. Once you walk out that door, what they do or don't understand or need 'enlightened' about is not your job.

And we continue to see people on these boards wondering why some states don't want 'siging agents' touching the paperwork. I sure understand why when I see posts like this one.

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 8:04am
Msg #208516

AMEN Sue!!!... n/m

Reply by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 8:04am
Msg #208517

What is a "siging agent'?

Just curious. You may not like the term "boil the cabbage down" but that is in essence what the notary does when we go over each doc. Obviously you are not from the south! Are you telling me that you read the entire doc? Or do you bring it to simple terms so the borrower understands what they are about to sign? Leaving those terms with the borrower for later reference can only help the borrower as a reference. We do it vocally, why not written for later review? I don't believe it is some major transgression as you would make it seem, dear!

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 8:12am
Msg #208518

Re: What is a "siging agent'?

I don't know what a siging agent is.
Apparently you are not qualified in this industry because you cannot grasp the specification of your job. That being said, no, I do not go over every single word of the doc and no, I've never had a borrower scratching their head trying to figure out what they signed. Also, no, I'm not from the South, whatever that means dear. I'm sorry your great definitions idea wasn't so great. It's the LO's job to make sure they know what they are getting not yours! You go identify, sign and be done with it, don't try to be the hero.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 8/30/07 7:56am
Msg #208514

Copyrights

Whoever wrote the "couble of sheets that boils the cabbage down" holds the copyright on those sheets, and it would be a copyright violation to copy them without permission. Since 1978 it has not been necessary to register works with the copyright office, nor has it been necessary to put the word Copyright or the © symbol on the work.

Reply by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 8:14am
Msg #208519

Re: Copyrights

The sheet does not have a company name on it. Just definitions. No reference to any company.

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 8:18am
Msg #208521

Re: Copyrights

ok...six months after the borrower signs the loan....They default, and go before a judge and hand him something you left them. Do you want to be in the hot chair over giving them a written instrument that can be altered? Think about it for a second before you start flapping your lips in defense of what you're doing! Get a clue

Reply by WDMD on 8/30/07 8:18am
Msg #208522

Re: Copyrights

God help you if any of those definitions is wrong or misinterpreted by the borrower. Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen to me. Let the lender be liable for any definitions.

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 8:19am
Msg #208523

EXACTLY WD!!!. n/m

Reply by Gerry_VT on 8/30/07 8:20am
Msg #208524

Re: Copyrights

Every creative work is automatically copyrighted the moment someone writes it down. There are no requirements at all about putting anything on the work. No name, no address, no copyright notice, is needed. It is up to the person who wants to make a copy to figure out who wrote it and get permission to copy.

The creativity requirement is minimal. Telephone listings can't be copyrighted because that is the only reasonable way to arrange the information. But whenever there is a choice about how to word something, it's copyrighted.

Reply by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 8:37am
Msg #208526

Charm

Who said anything about being a hero? All of a sudden, someone is not qualified to do a job because of a sheet a paper that would help the borrower review the docs long after the notary has left. The information, already given verbally, reminds the borrower what the doc is in their own private time. There is no conflict of interest with the Lenders packet.

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 10:18am
Msg #208549

Re: Charm

go back and read up on what a notary public is. You are not an LO or a mortgage broker and have no financial interest in the case whatsoever. It's not your job to leave definitions. Can't you see where this can back fire???

Reply by sue_pa on 8/30/07 8:40am
Msg #208527

try this

type up your little sheet. Forward it to the legal departments of 5 lenders - pick big ones like Chase, Countrywide, Wells Fargo, etc. Ask their lawyers if they want you, a 'signing agent' to supply their borrowers with your own definitions. Let us know their reply.

Reply by VBNotaryVA on 8/30/07 8:52am
Msg #208528

Plain English Closing Form

Has anyone else seen these? I've gotten a couple of these in packages this year and they are great. It's about 3/4 of a page long and breaks down the whole package for the borrowers to easily understand and puts them at ease for the entire signing.

Reply by sue_pa on 8/30/07 9:05am
Msg #208530

Re: Plain English Closing Form

they are great. The point is, the lender is the one who decides to supply their borrower with this document. We NEVER a decision as to what documents borrowers receive and we certainly NEVER, EVER 'create' our own form to leave with the borrowers.

Sounds to me like this young lady and the one in CA who thought it was acceptable to somehow go into lender docs and change preprinted dates must be related.

Each and every day I wonder how long I'll be in business before the rug gets pulled out from under us because of these 'signing agents' who have no idea what their job is.

Reply by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 9:46am
Msg #208536

Not related to the agent in California

No I am not related to the agent in California and I have never even thought about changing a Lender document. I always tell the borrowers if they have a question about the docs later that they need to call the lender. The information that I was proposing to offer was to identify the doc in a simple sentence. Maybe the Lenders should be putting this info in the packs for the borrower for later reference. If I was a borrower I would appreciate seeing it on paper in simple terms in a format that lists the docs and what it is. Then certainly it is never up for interpretation by what the notary says or even the Lender as to what the individual thinks they "heard".

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/30/07 10:09am
Msg #208542

Not to Speak for Sue...

...as she can most certainly speak for herself ( ), but I believe the point she's emphatically pounding home to you is you're treading close to UPL (unlicensed practice of law). If the lenders want to provide this info, fine & dandy. However, it's NOT wise at all for you to compose a document which can be construed as a part of the loan package itself. You DO need to keep it simple...don't do it.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 8/30/07 12:30pm
Msg #208612

Re: Plain English Closing Form

I've seen a few of these; I make sure it's the first document the borrowers see and sign. I would rather they take the time to read it before signing anything else, because it saves time and confusion with the other documents. The ones I've seen require notarization.

I would never present the borrower with a document that didn't come in the package, with the exception of a form for them to explain in their own words why they refuse to sign if the closing goes south.

I recall reading something a while back about someone who presented the borrowers with a disclaimer at the beginning of the signing, explaining the notary's role in the transaction and asking them to sign off in acknowledgment. I think even that goes too far, and sets the wrong tone for the signing - it could make the borrowers suspicious and/or defensive.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/30/07 1:30pm
Msg #208630

I've Had the Borrower(s) Sign My "Agreement"...

...for over 6 years now & don't believe it goes too far or sets the wrong tone. Mine was created in collaboration with my attorney & spells out in detail the role I play in the signing process. By signing the borrower(s) are simply agreeing "this is what I do & just as important, what I don't do" & I emphasize "it's not a contract". Several title companies I work with have a Notary/Signing Agent disclaimer included in the package & their version is similar in language to my agreement. I can only think of one time (5 years ago) where a single gentleman borrower raised an objection to the form & it turned out he critiqued every doc in the package anyway. The only comment I ever receive is "oh, so this is a 'CYA' form". To each his/her own in this regard. It's a document my attorney feels is important to have signed & I'm in agreement with his assessment.

BTW, like you I also utilize a form for the borrower(s) to sign & explain their reasoning if the "closing goes south".

Reply by MikeC/NY on 8/30/07 4:35pm
Msg #208718

Re: I've Had the Borrower(s) Sign My "Agreement"...

I guess it depends on the way it's worded. The one I saw was not worded well, and seemed to me to be more confrontational than anything else - can't remember where I saw it or what it said, but I do remember thinking at the time, "oh, this is not a good idea."

I don't know what you're using so I couldn't comment on it, but if it works for you and puts the borrowers at ease, that's great.

Reply by Paul2_FL on 8/30/07 9:03am
Msg #208529

While I applaud your concern for the borrowers, and knowing that you want to help them to understand the documents they signed better, please remember that the "road to hell is paved with good intentions". If you do your job as a "Signing Agent" correctly, the borrowers should have a reasonable understanding of the docs you presented and for any docs they have questions on they should be contacting the LO for clarification - during OR after the signing. You surely don't want them relying on some "definitions" that you created which they may not interpert correctly thus putting you in a liable situation.

Reply by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 9:08am
Msg #208531

Thank you Paul. That's all that needed to be said. This was a what if question and your response is the most professional given. I will botch the idea.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/30/07 1:14pm
Msg #208624

"Thank you Paul. That's all that needed to be said. This was a what if question and your response is the most professional given. I will botch the idea."

So you just ignored the advice of, and argued with all the other people who said the exact same thing to you until you found one that said it in a way that didn't bruise your ego? What a piece of work.

Reply by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 3:33pm
Msg #208683

The American College Dictionary syn. term for argue means "Argue implies reasoning or trying to understand; it does not necessarily imply opposition ". I don't see in any of my posts where I told the poster I disagreed with their thoughts. I had an idea and was exhausting all angles of their input. I agree that Sue gives very good advice but she could have said what she said without taking the knife and twisting it when she was through. On the other hand, Paul put the knife in, sewed it up and sent me on my way. If I can have a choice of either of those surgeons, Paul wins all day long. Did I apologize for any inflammatory language? Yes. Was the idea totally off the wall? Apparently so.

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/30/07 9:09am
Msg #208532

Never provide any ancillary document for the borrowers.

If the lender wants it there, they will provide it.

Reply by CJ on 8/30/07 10:11am
Msg #208545

I don't see why everyone is getting so upset.

Snoopdog thought he had a good idea, so he ran it by us. Others think it is asking for trouble. I don't know why people can't voice their opinion and leave out all the insults.

You can say, "I know it seems like a good idea, but this is where I see the problem".

Reply by BetsyMI on 8/30/07 10:12am
Msg #208546

Re: I don't see why everyone is getting so upset.

I agree...this got way out of control for a seemingly innocent suggestion, which I believe snoopdog has decided not to do.

Reply by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 10:21am
Msg #208551

Re: I don't see why everyone is getting so upset.

By the way snoopdogMs is a Mrs. I call myself snoopdog because my vehicle was stolen at gunpoint last Christmas and I had to do some detective work to locate it and they got away again because the police could not get there in time. I have a tough hide and don't get rattled too easily. I just get a mental picture of the homes of the people that come on here be it good or bad. I just feel sorry for the bad.

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 10:23am
Msg #208553

Re: I don't see why everyone is getting so upset.

I just get a mental picture of the homes of the people that come on here be it good or bad. I just feel sorry for the bad.

another stupid response.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/30/07 10:28am
Msg #208555

While I Agree...

...there are some on this board, perhaps even in this thread, who should choose their words more carefully (BTW, I've been guilty of that same "crime" in the past) it still doesn't justify your response. Your "mental picture" analogy will only serve to "stir the pot" even more. Totaly uncalled for.

Reply by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 10:32am
Msg #208557

Re: While I Agree...

You are correct Dennis. My apology for those inflaming words.

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 10:35am
Msg #208558

Re: While I Agree...

Dennis, I'm so sick and tired of the newbie know every things that take the food off my plate, and will gladly do it for $50 bucks!
Maybe I could have been 'softer' and I thought I was at first, but this kind of 'make up your crap as you go' routine is tiring, not only to me but other professionals as well. I have a definite dislike for the 'I know everything and I'll just get indignant if you don't agree.'

Reply by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 10:46am
Msg #208562

Re: While I Agree...

Dear Charm, I did not get indignant and a reminder that Sue from PA made the first inflammatory comment. Just so you might know, I make anywhere from $100 to $275 for my closings and make about $3K a month. Something must be right and my clients call me back. You know nothing about me other than I proposed an idea that maybe the lenders themselves should consider. After reading some of the posts, I can see where the idea could lend itself to liability.

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 10:50am
Msg #208566

Re: While I Agree...

while I'm happy you make 3k a month....this is what I'm referring to


"Just curious. You may not like the term "boil the cabbage down" but that is in essence what the notary does when we go over each doc. Obviously you are not from the south! Are you telling me that you read the entire doc? Or do you bring it to simple terms so the borrower understands what they are about to sign? Leaving those terms with the borrower for later reference can only help the borrower as a reference. We do it vocally, why not written for later review? I don't believe it is some major transgression as you would make it seem, dear!"

Ok maybe it's me, but I find this and other statements in same thread by you inflamatory. I'm done with this

Reply by sue_pa on 8/30/07 12:42pm
Msg #208615

Re: While I Agree...

You're correct - it does inflame me to even think that a thought such as this crosses anyone's mind. Lenders spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the loan document forms they use. That someone in the field - with no knowledge of compliance and legal requirements - could consider creating a form to provide the borrowers - no matter how well intended - completely and totally baffles my mind. Do the job you're hired to do. These forms are out there - if lenders wanted them included, they'd include it.

Reply by Charm_AL on 8/30/07 10:22am
Msg #208552

CJ...

not on a public forum, only in a perfect world....you don't get to dictate how people answer a post. I gave it my best shot until it got stupid. If another notary new or green to this industry reads that, I want to make sure they get the point. No reason to defend stupidty.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/30/07 1:51pm
Msg #208640

My 2 cents...

I think people are getting upset because a knowledgeable signing agent should know better than this and Snoopdog has been around long enough to know better. I think sue_pa said it best: "...we continue to see people on these boards wondering why some states don't want 'siging agents' touching the paperwork." This kind of thinking and activity potentially affects us all.

It's only in the last two or three years that I've seen so many companies sending out multiple pages of instructions, most of which are very basic stuff (or should be) and doing so much hand holding. I realize that there are many factors affecting this, but it's very frustrating in this market to read about things that, however well intentioned, can make things worse instead of better.

BTW, sue_pa is one of the people on this board that I pay close attention to, regardless of how it's put. I find that the best advice I get here is from people who have been around long enough to know what they are talking about and don't bother sugar-coating it. (Glad to see you posting again, Sue!) If some of those few people say something that seems in opposition to my first impression, I don't care how inflamatory, the first thing I'm going to do is re-examine my own position. I may not always agree in the end, but so far, that's served me very well...

Reply by christiSocal on 8/30/07 3:48pm
Msg #208687

Re: My 2 cents...

Janet, you said that perfectly! I, too, have certain people I always read and I will re-examine my thoughts, when reading, as well.
As a sugar-coater type of person, I gotta say, people listen less to us and more to, ummm can't think of the word I want, how about "in your face type responses". That's not it, but close enough.
Snoop, you may have enough understanding of the docs to get away with this (though I think you're treading dangerous water) But what about the newbie? Who doesn't understand half the docs yet, seeing your post and thinking they should do that? The "harsh" responses, hopefully, will stop them...

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/31/07 6:22pm
Msg #208963

Excellent point re: newbies! n/m

Reply by jojo_MN on 8/30/07 12:55pm
Msg #208617

You are referring to the "Plain English" document that some

companies supply to the borrower. If there is one in the package, I put it at the top of their documents. It is usually buried somewhere at the end. So far, I've only had a couple companies supply this form.

I always put the HUD, followed by the Right to Cancel, Note, Truth in Lending, Itemization, first payment letter, mortgage and any riders, and application on top of the borrower's copies.
These are the main documents that the borrowers need to be concerned about. If there is anything "out of the ordinary" I will also move that to the front as well.

Reply by firegirl on 8/30/07 1:32pm
Msg #208632

simple solution....

........what would be wrong with the BORROWER making his own little sticky note or whatever to put on the docs just in case he needed something to jog his memory? JMO

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/30/07 6:34pm
Msg #208766

Re: simple solution....

There's nothing wrong with that legally, but I'm sure not about to double the signing time while the borrower makes a bunch of notes and starts flipping through his copy as we're doing the signing.

Reply by ZeeCA on 8/30/07 4:48pm
Msg #208733

I just remember toooo well her last posting that she got

nasty with everyone about taking charge of the signing as she attended some aggressive course online or read a book on it or something.............

Reply by snoopdogMs on 8/30/07 5:15pm
Msg #208753

Re: I just remember toooo well her last posting that she got

Nasty? This comment is way off the meter. At least I can apologize if I am wrong and even admit that the idea was off base.