Posted by Bob_Chicago on 8/20/07 11:23am
Msg #206588

Some thoughts on ID ing a borrower....

As I see it , there are three criteria for a NP to identify a signer, in
the following order of priority.
1. The laws of your jurisdiction
2. The requirements of the party who
will receive the document to be
notarized (e.g. the lender, including
the lenders requirements under the
Patriot Act. )
3. The NP's common sense.
The concept of a traveling NP,
certainly, of a NSA is new.
State NP laws were generally written assuming that that the person
will come to the NP's place of business
such as someone selling a car and needing the bill of sale notarized, and have to establish their identity, or
that the person signing is known to the
NP or to the NPS's employer, e.g. A secretary at a construction firm that notarizes release of lien forms or such as a secretary at an attorney's office.
In our business we generally go to the person’s home to sign loan dox in a transaction that they have initialed and
where the lender has checked them out as to their ownership of the PIQ and their creditworthyness, to the lender's satisfaction.
Our job, subject to the above criteria, is to determine if the person signing the dox is the party named on the title to the property AND the party
that the lender intends to be the recipient of the loan. The info written on
the ID card is but one factor that we should use in making that determination.
We are usually in the borrower's home. We can observe pictures on the wall,
interaction with children, campare the bwrs info with the 1003,( age SS # etc.),
do they seem to be "at home", attitude when we confirm appointmet,
(my house is very messy, can we meet at Starbucks??)
When there is an issue of middle name, initial, I believe that a credible witness
is basically useless. How many of us know a neighbors middle name or even if
they are Bill, are they a William, Wilford, Willard, etc. ???
In a perfect world, the lender would find
out prior to preparing the loan dox, how title to the PIQ is held AND what is shown
on the bwr's ID. Unfortunately, that rarely happens.
Our job is to try to make the transaction happen, if we can, considering the three
criteria stated above.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/20/07 1:15pm
Msg #206614

"Our job, subject to the above criteria, is to determine if the person signing the dox is the party named on the title to the property AND the party
that the lender intends to be the recipient of the loan."

No it's not. Our job is to determine that John Smith is John Smith.

Checking pictures on the wall or being suspicious because they want to meet at Starbucks is sticking our noses where they don't belong and can create a host of ugly problems for you, including getting your a$$ sued. We've all seen how little common sense some notaries have just by their postings on this board, why on earth would you be encouraging them to do something so irresponsible?

Reply by Gerry_VT on 8/20/07 1:30pm
Msg #206617

It would indeed be irresponsible to accept pictures on a wall or kids calling someone "mommy" as a substitute for proper ID. On the other hand, a notary should take into account all the information he/she is aware of, and if some information that does not come from an ID card makes the notary believe he/she is dealing with an imposter, the notary should not continue with the signing unless the notary fears for his/her safety.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/20/07 1:53pm
Msg #206626

And what information would that be? Aside from maybe the birthdate on the application not matching the one on the ID, which I never compare anyway, but could certainly warrant a phone call to the title company, I can't really think of any situation where a red flag would be raised that would make it acceptable to refuse to notarize a document for somebody with a valid ID. State laws may vary, but in CA we cannot refuse to notarize if we're presented with acceptable ID.

And again, we shouldn't be sticking our noses where they don't belong. It's almost guaranteed to create more problems than it solves.

Reply by CJ on 8/20/07 2:24pm
Msg #206636

I remember when the Feds caught the woman "recently" who was part of the Symbioniese Liberation Army. Even her husband and kids did not know who she really was. When they arrested her, I read that her husband tried to stop them and said they had the wrong person. But she went without a struggle, becasuse she knew who she was.

I suppose if you called two witnesses, like neighbors to ID her, they would just know her false name. If I were notaryizing her, what could I do? Just check her ID, and get her thumbprint. I wonder if she had all her property in her husband's name. I wonder if she somehow had a valid ID from the DMV. All the pictures on the wall and kids calling her mommy would not help in that situation.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 8/21/07 11:57am
Msg #206796

I can't think of a red flag that would be apparent from a casual scan of the documents, and it isn't our job to go looking for trouble in the documents. However, a red flag could appear from many sources, such as a comment from a neighbor, a newspaper story, or our own knowledge of the neighborhood (hmm, this 25 year old isn't the same elderly guy I took to the hospital last week in my duties as an EMT in the local volunteer fire department...)
It isn't our job to go out of our way to find red flags, but if one pops up anyway, we can't ignore it. And in my state, valid ID is whatever I say it is.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/20/07 3:00pm
Msg #206651

I'd be in trouble! The only pictures on my wall of family are my parents photo and my mother and father in laws photos. I have other photos scattered around but they are of my kids and grandkids! Oh, there is a photo of me as a child and also my husbands graduation photo. But no current photos. So anyone wishing to ID us from pictures on the wall would have a major problem.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 8/20/07 3:16pm
Msg #206658

Sylvia, you are one of a kind. No one would have a....

problem knowing that that they had the correct Sylvia. Hope all
is well and that all of the health issues are under control for you and Bruce.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 8/20/07 3:16pm
Msg #206659

Sylvia, you are one of a kind. No one would have a....

problem knowing that that they had the correct Sylvia. Hope all
is well and that all of the health issues are under control for you and Bruce.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 8/20/07 3:05pm
Msg #206653

You might want to read my post once more. I stated.....

clearly, that state law and lender reqmts are most important.
The common sense issue must also be used.
Example, you see a 22 year old sitting at the table with an ID
that says John J. Smith just as on the reverse mortage dox he is
about to sign as the only signer. The real
Conversly if ID has only a middle initial and dox have full middle name. but everything else seems to check out. you might to be able to assume that you have the correct party. ;.