Posted by Ali/IL on 8/3/07 2:03pm
Msg #203826

What do you think

I got a call today from a signing service that I signed for.
I did a closing for two men that owned home together. No docs showed that they were married. I just had them sign docs. The thought did cross my mind that wives should sign legals.
The signing agency wants me to go back. They caught me at a bad time. I told them that I expected a return fee. They said I should have known that the wives should have signed. I said you should have known too. You should check docs to make sure they are correct.
What about everyone involved in this transaction from the loan officer to others.
They just got to me today. I would return for free.Before some of you yell at me I should have called lender from site.

Reply by aatatusko on 8/3/07 2:11pm
Msg #203830

How would you have known? Was there a marriage aff in the docs? They could have been just a couple of fellows owning a home. We are not mind readers. Here in VA nbs doesn't sign (some mortgage companies insist but it isn't law). If it wasn't too far I would have gone back...for a reasonable fee.

Reply by Shannon_Va on 8/4/07 3:02pm
Msg #203991

aatatusko in VA

I was a bit confused bu your reply. Is the spouse on title?
In Virginia, if the spouse is on title, they DO HAVE TO sign the deed of trust! Even if they are not the borrower. A non borrowering spouse on title, needs to sign the deed of trust, and any riders that get recorded, the TIL and the RTC.
If the spouse IS NOT on title to the property, then they do not have to sign anything.
Va is not a dower interest state.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 8/3/07 2:12pm
Msg #203831

You answered your own question with the sentence

"the thought did cross my mind that wives should sign legals", and yep, calling title from the table would have been a real good idea, would have saved a trip.

Reply by Cindy Cheely on 8/3/07 2:13pm
Msg #203832

Seems to me that its all their responsibility to 'Know their Customer' and we as Notaries are not supposed to get into anything that remotely sounds like giving legal advice.. I do not think its Automatic to assume anyone is married.
However if the vesting in the DOT addresses that you have 2 married men, you could have asked.. That would have been the only thing that I might have questioned.
But if you got signatures on the docs they provided, then they have no right to ask you to go back out for Free... JMO

Reply by SueW/Tn on 8/3/07 2:18pm
Msg #203834

You wear two hats here

You're correct that you can't give legal advice as a NP BUT as an SA you can ask a question that can prevent a second trip...nothing wrong with that.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/3/07 2:21pm
Msg #203836

Re: You wear two hats here

If I had a signing with two men owning a home -or two women, I would probably not ask if either of them was married.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 8/3/07 2:27pm
Msg #203840

Point taken Sylvia

I usually ask if there's a spouse when I accept the assignment, if it's an "unknown" I tell the BO when I call to confirm that I will need a copy of their ID along with a copy of their spouse's ID, I usually find out then and there if I'm going to have one signer or two. I've had two signings where I had two women on Title and just casually mentioned how lucky they were to have husbands that did such terrific jobs taking care of the beautiful landscaping...I found out quickly there were no husbands.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/3/07 3:01pm
Msg #203856

Re: Point taken Sylvia

Even if there is a spouse there are situations where the spouse does not have to sign the "legals".

I had one signing where only husband's name was on all docs. I went to do the signing, we had almost finished when he mentioned his wife had just left on a trip that day. I called company and advised them that there was a spouse. I was told that it wasn't my concern and just to get the docs signed by the husband. I checked later and the mortgage had recorded without the wife's signature.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 8/3/07 10:56pm
Msg #203928

In many states, so long a the party named in the mtg.....

signs it, it is properly notariized and contains the rquisite
legal, proerty ID # etc, the recorder will record the mtg. . Recorder does
not care if others have should have signed it who may be on title spouses
etc. In many cases the Recorder will not even check the reecords to see if the person who
signed is even one of the owners of the property, let alone if eachl requistie
party has signed,. .
The problem comes in when the TC needs to insure that the
lender has a valid lien on the property, which requires that the
security insturment be signed by all those with an interest in
the property, ( owners, required spouses, etc, etc.)
The problem gets even bigger if the lender goes to foreclose, and
some party with an interst in the property had not singed the mtg.
That is when the #hit really hits the fan.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/3/07 2:19pm
Msg #203835

Problem is that there are instances where spouses do not have to sign. And how were you supposed to know they were married?
It is really up to the title company to indicate whether anyone else has to sign the docs.
For us to make that decision would be UPL.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 8/3/07 5:41pm
Msg #203883

NOT LEGAL ADVICE yada yada yada, but as I understand...

in Illinois, if the spouses do not occupy the house as the
marital home, then there is no need for the spouse to sign.
Il , I believe, is a spousal State only as to the Marital Home
Unless this was some kind of group marriage, (Kninky??) then
there was no need for the wives to sign

Reply by jojo_MN on 8/4/07 2:17am
Msg #203946

Re: NOT LEGAL ADVICE yada yada yada, but as I understand...

I automoatically ask any borrower if he or she is married. Whether it is two women, men, or one of each. I have run into every possible senerio. I've had a couple sign the documents with the same last name. I assumed they were husband and wife. Half way through the closing (after signing over 100 pages), we came to the mortgage and I was asked why the document stated "husband and wife". As it turned out, they were brother and sister that took over ownership of their parents' house after they passed away. The woman retained her maiden name and both of them were married, so docs had to be redrawn with both of their spouses added to the mortgage and other legals.

Another time, I did a full purchase closing with a couple selling the house and a male and female (couple) purchasing. I asked them (the borrowers) if they were married. They said "no". Two days later I got an angry call from the Title company asking why the husband didn't sign the documents. I said he did sign--the seller's docs. As it turned out, the female purchaser was married, but to someone else. I had to drive down that night at 11:30 pm (over 1 1/2 hours away) to have her husband sign (who was living with a girlfriend). I didn't get paid for either trip because it was "my fault" for not makng sure that the non-borrowiing spouse signed the docs.

I now ALWAYS ask "are you married to each other and/or anyone else"!