Posted by Lisa Prestegard on 12/22/07 8:16am
Msg #227365

A serious question

Has anyone ever been to a closing at the Borrower's home that was so ... (loss for appropriate adjective)... disgusting, that they've felt inclined to call Child Protective Services due to the living conditions in said home?

Reply by CF on 12/22/07 8:25am
Msg #227366

Really- well yes, but no kinds were present. I hate to say this....but child protective services will only do something is the kids are being abused or neglected. They dont remove kids for a house being dirty!!!!! I try to explain to my husband that our standard of living is just not the norm.....he thinks that everyone lives like that! NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!! I guess that if there was animal/ human fecies and/or no running water; then they may do something!!!!!

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 12/22/07 9:04am
Msg #227369

Abuse/neglect is subjective

In my opinion, the children (3) were neglected. The house was more than dirty. The stench of feces made my eyes water, and they have no kids in diapers. When I drove up to the house, I had to call from the driveway because the home looked abandoned... and very scary. She assured me that I was at the right house, and she was sorry that there was no outside light (it was well after dark). I had to navigate through an overgrown brush pile that stretched the length of the residence, empty fish aquariums, a broken BBQ grill, a boat motor or two, and various bicycles just to get to the front door. Before she opened the door, the smell brought me to the point of nausea.

Once inside, I was again made to walk through an obstacle course of garbage (literally) lying on EVERY square inch of disgusting carpet and was led to the equally filthy sofa, where we were going to sign. She found some old cardboard to lay on her and hubby's laps to act as tables, as the dining room table was piled 3' high with more garbage (smelling of kitchen trash and MANY animals).

No evidence of food, but plenty of prescription pill bottles strewn about. My heart just broke in pieces, watching the 13 year old girl (engaging & bright, not unlike my daughter) attempt to decorate a table-top Christmas tree and wrap little dollar-store gifts for her friends from school (bought with her own money, she proudly stated). All the while, the two boys were perfecting their WWE wrestling moves on each other, on the sofa where we were signing, mimicing the match that was on (very loud) television the whole time I was there. Dad could barely be bothered to sign the NBS docs, as he was "gettin' his raslin' fix" on this Friday night, right along with the boys.

Maybe if it weren't the holidays, I'd be less affected. After being in hundreds of homes, I suppose we become immune to an extent. This truly was the worst I've ever seen. I drove home with my windows down, hoping to air out my clothes and get the stench out of my nose. Once home, clothes went to the wash and I went to the shower. Yes, the smell was THAT bad... it had permeated my clothes, hair, skin.... yuck.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 12/22/07 10:00am
Msg #227378

Re: Abuse/neglect is subjective

From what you described, the kids could be removed here in Massachusetts. If I were you, I would call Child Protective Services. Even if they don't remove the children, their presence will undoubtedly motivate the parents to clean.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me because some believe that Child Protective Services (called Department of Social Services [DSS] in MA) exists only to rip apart families. This is not the case! One of my duties as a paralegal is to assist families who have problems and need representation before government agencies (such as DSS).

Granted, I work technically against DSS, but I haven't encountered a case yet where DSS wasn't justified in their actions in removing children from the care and custody of their parents/guardians. I've dealt with Social Workers who willfully disregard a judge's order...... but that's a different story.

If I were you, I’d call.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 12/22/07 10:11am
Msg #227380

Re: Abuse/neglect is subjective

Had to weigh in on this one as I'm in complete disagreement. I have a brother (single parent) with 5 children (11-16, one set of twins). There are 6 of us and all raised the same way, a place for everything and everything in it's place. That obviously flew out the window with him! Things are EVERYWHERE and while I couldn't find a kid in this mess they all know exactly where everything is. There's always food in the fridge, heat and water and the kids are happy and well adjusted, they just dance to a different drummer. Years ago I had a sister-in-law that took it upon herself to call DSS every chance she got because in her mind they weren't living up to her standards. They'd come out, look around, talk to the kids and go away. Finally they told the sister-in-law that one more call and they'd come check on her! There's certainly alot to be said about well meaning folks BUT one has to look at the children and see if they're well rounded, happy and their tummy's are full. With the boys playing and the daughter decorating what is it that makes you feel the children are mistreated? Mistreated and abused children do not play, they don't laugh and carry on AND they're usually sullen and quiet. What may not be acceptable to you or I is sometimes a way of life for others. Sometimes spending time with the kids and interacting with them is more important to a parent then waxing the floors and putting plastic on the sofa so it doesn't get stained.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 12/22/07 10:18am
Msg #227384

Re: Abuse/neglect is subjective

Lisa wrote:, “[t]he stench of feces made my eyes water, and they have no kids in diapers.” And most disturbingly, “[n]o evidence of food, but plenty of prescription pill bottles strewn about.”

The stench of feces more likely then not, suggests that feces is present. This can seriously make a child sick.

Not having food is one of the obvious signs of neglect.

Does Lisa have a good reason to call Child Protective Services? IMHO, yes!

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/22/07 10:24am
Msg #227386

Re: Abuse/neglect is subjective

I agree that not everyone needs to be cleanies in order to be "okay". It's the description of the pill bottles that clue me in to a situation that might need assistance. If one or both parents are ill or on Medicaid (and I don't know how that works) they may need a social worker to help them figure out where to get started on living in a less health-threatening (feces/stench) environment.

People don't necessarily live in filth and squalor because they like it like that. Quite often they are mentally ill, ill, or simply very depressed and overwhelmed and they need assistance.

Messy chaos and filth are two very different things.

JMHO.

Reply by Loretta on 12/22/07 12:11pm
Msg #227411

Re: Abuse/neglect is subjective

"With the boys playing and the daughter decorating what is it that makes you feel the children are mistreated? Mistreated and abused children do not play, they don't laugh and carry on AND they're usually sullen and quiet."
I agree with most of your post, SueW/Tn; I have a different side to the above comment.
I was very outspoken and "matter of fact" when I was a child. My father beat me with a belt on a regular basis (whether I deserved it or not). He would get drunk and break all of the furniture in the house and throw it out the front door, call me fat and ugly. This was not once a year folks, this was every weekend.
I found that playing with my friends made me forget. Drinking and partying hard with my friends as a teen was also a relief (at that time). Just because someone looks one way on the outside doesn't mean that everything is peachy on the inside.
On another note, being 16 years clean and sober I know that just because you grow up in certain circumstances doesn't mean you have to stay that way, raise your own children that way. Every family has some kind of "issue". Whether workaholic parents or pack rats (like my mother-in-law).

Reply by Ernest__CT on 12/22/07 5:42pm
Msg #227447

Kudos, Loretta! Well said. My hat's off to you. n/m

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/23/07 9:01pm
Msg #227514

Re: Abuse/neglect is subjective

That's right, Loretta. Good for you. I had friends who suffered similarly. Would you have preferred some nosy notary to take you from your home and friends and put you in the homes of strangers?

I have been spared addiction but I have family members who have not.

People suffer and the little bits of goodness they have are precious. Some nosy holier than thou might just take those little bits away. Whether it's the good times at home that are great or the neighbors or friends - you don't know - taking a child out of its home without seeing absolute evidence of physical harm is just unbelievable to me.

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/23/07 9:43pm
Msg #227519

Re: Abuse/neglect is subjective

>>>taking a child out of its home without seeing absolute evidence of physical harm is just unbelievable to me.<<<


So emotional harm and abuse is okay with you? What about neglect? I guess as long as there is no "absolute evidence of physical harm" everything is hunky dory in your mind?

The self professed fraud crusader of the title industry could give a shit about kids. I bet you don't look for "absolute evidence" when you report someone for fraud now do you? Please explain the difference to me because I really don't see it. Are absolutes only prudent when you don't have an agenda?

A child is only removed from the home IF the investigator finds reason to remove the child.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 12/24/07 9:52am
Msg #227542

Right, Becca, because

how the hell can a "nosy notary" who is "holier than thou" obtain "absolute evidence of physical harm"?

This is the whole point behind Child Proctective Services, Diane! If a person has reasonable suspicion to suspect abuse and/or neglect, then that person should call CPS who will then investigate the situation. Wow! Just wow! I think you've been in the mortgage industry far too long if you don't know what the heck CPS is all about.

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 12/22/07 4:11pm
Msg #227436

Further clarification in response to Sue's post

SueW/Tn writes: “With the boys playing and the daughter decorating what is it that makes you feel the children are mistreated?”

Let me clarify. The boys were not nicely ‘playing’… they were mimicking violent wrestling moves on the very sofa mom, dad and I were attempting to sign financial documents, with no redress from their parents. A boy (now an adult) in Florida is spending the rest of his life in prison for killing his 6 year old cousin while using “wrestling moves” on her while his mother slept upstairs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Tate
These boys were several years apart in age, making it far from “play” and sent chills down my spine, as it was all too similar to the Tate incident.

The daughter was engaged by me while mom spent 15 minutes looking for something to write on since there was not a flat surface available anywhere in the house, and responded politely and with excitement that someone was paying attention to her. She was clearly happy that someone had noticed what she was doing.
Also, the parents spoke not one word to any of the kids while I was there… no admonishments, no interaction at all.

Your brother is raising twice as many kids by himself, which is difficult by anyone’s measure. I’m sure his house is in disarray, but as you said, everything has its place and everyone knows where that is. In the situation I describe, that wasn’t the case at all. There was no evidence that kids even lived there, other than the bicycles. No back packs. No toys. This was unsettling, to say the least. Dad stays home all day, doesn’t work, and is ‘retired’ at 47, so there’s no excuse for the house to smell (and look) the way it did.

I intentionally omitted these things in my initial post, as I wanted as many opinions as possible just sticking to the barest of facts.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 12/22/07 4:29pm
Msg #227439

I think the majority is suggesting you should call

there is no harm that can come of it. They (CPS) know what they're doing. If your claim is substantiated, it doesn't necessarily mean that the kids will be yanked from their home. It could simply mean that CPS will offer assistance to the family and will see to it that the house gets cleaned up.

If you call the Fire Department or Health Department, like one poster suggested below, they will call CPS anyway. They're mandated reporters and have to report any suspicion of neglect and/or abuse. (At least they're in MA).

Reply by sue_pa on 12/23/07 8:24am
Msg #227473

Re: Further clarification in response to Sue's post

Lisa, I'm not getting into whether or not you should report them because you were the only one in the house and none of us can imagine (well, most of us can because we've been there to certain degrees) or make that judgment call. I personally feel government intervention in family matters is way above and beyond but there are situations it is required and it seems like you feel this was one. Hopefully all of us will do what we feel is 'right' in these situations.

BUT, I wanted to make 2 comments on something else. The boys wrestling. First, they would have made one wrestling move on the couch where I was sitting. If the parents said nothing, the second move would have had my 'mean' voice telling them in no uncertain terms to move to another room, we are doing something important and cannot get our important legal work finished with them right there.

I also have asked people to turn televisions off. I truly don't understand the volume issue with some people.

I'll have 4 or 5 'boys' in my house this evening that have wrestled, fought, pounded each other, tossed each other across the room, etc, for years - this saying nothing about what comes out of their mouths during all this activity. I had no brothers so this violence concept was (and 20 some laters still is) totally foreign to me as my son started bringing friends home. These 'boys' are grown men and I imagine when I'm in my rocking chair I'll shake my head as this activitity still will continue at levels their arthritis, bad hips and rheumatism allows.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/22/07 11:40am
Msg #227405

those children sound happy though living in very poor

conditions. A super clean house with emotional monsters for parents can be more evil than a pig sty filled with love.

Unless I saw absolute abuse that wasn't simply based on social mores, I'd leave it alone.

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 12/22/07 4:29pm
Msg #227440

Diane

Just out of curiousity, have you performed closings in the Borrower's home? If so, how many would be your best guess?
My reason for asking is purely mathematical. I've been in nearly 1000 different, unique homes in the past couple of years. Most people in most occupations, even very social people, cannot say the same. Your friends, family, and colleagues most likely live a life quite similar to your own, which can lead to an insulated perspective.
Being an analytical sort with a bit of a 'math brain', I see numbers, ratios, etc. in most everything. If in over 1000 instances I've never come across something this unsettling, it upsets the balance of things and gives me cause for concern, hence my initial bare-bones post outlining my situation with just enough detail. (stay with me... I'm going somewhere with this)

I've read many posts of yours regarding mortgage fraud, and understand your position to be that we, the closers, should be aware of possible/potential fraud and report suspected fraud to the lender or TC (or hiring entity) as a matter of ethical, if not legal, responsibility.

So, I am curious. How can you put forth the argument that we should be on the look out for fraud, yet respond so coldly when the welfare of children are concerned?
Again, I reiterate that abuse & neglect are subjective.

I am positively at a loss for words when I read your post "those children sound happy..." and "Unless I saw absolute abuse...".

Forgive my frankness, but your post sounds quite contradictory to your position on being the eyes/ears at the closing table where mortgage fraud is concerned, yet seemingly uncaring with regard to living, breathing human beings.... kids, at that.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/23/07 2:50pm
Msg #227497

Re: Diane

**Forgive my frankness, but your post sounds quite contradictory to your position on being the eyes/ears at the closing table where mortgage fraud is concerned, yet ...*

A very, very good discussion point...

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/23/07 8:48pm
Msg #227512

You are blowing my mind with your ignorance.

Some goody two shoes who doesn't understand that some families have hardships that they work through and may be embarrassed about and don't need the government to come in and take children away from parents they care for - what are you?

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/23/07 9:32pm
Msg #227518

Diane, You're new here. Remember that.

You don't know Brenda. You don't know what hardships she may have had to work through.

Don't judge and don't say we are judging by calling a third party to investigate a situation that just doesn't look right to us. I would much rather I make an anonymous call and know that someone was alerted, rather than read about a terrible situation in the paper knowing I could have helped. And, before you start saying that can't happen...I assure you, it can and it does.

What are you?

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/24/07 6:22am
Msg #227530

Re: You are blowing my mind with your ignorance.

Not sure why you are qualilfying me/my posting as a goody two shoes, ignorant, or asking "what or you?" so I am ignoring that and going back to the point of my remarks that this the following was good discussion point.

While we are the eyes and ears for mortgage fraud suspicion, are we not to also notice if:

An elder has no heat?
A famly has no running water?
Children are entombed in filth?

I doubt seriously that any of *us* purportedly "normals" have found reason to ask for help or to change without a degree of embarrassment or other uncomfortable feelings preceding that stimulus for change. Sometimes the dark conditions of life we observe signal a cry for help.

We can ignore the forest while staring down on one tree. A lot of good a righteous mortgage is if the inhabitants inside of the transaction property become permanently damaged or fatally ill from the conditions of the very roof over their heads.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/24/07 6:24am
Msg #227531

should be

**that this the following was good discussion point.**

"that the following was a good discussion point."

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 12/24/07 9:38am
Msg #227540

Diane, do you have kids?

I don't have any YET , but I couldn't imagine a mother or father wanting kids to live in that type of environment.

I don't follow your work, or life, which is why I'm asking if you have kids.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/23/07 8:41pm
Msg #227511

Re: Diane

I have been serving people in their homes since I was a teenager. I was born in Homestead and was a counselor for Young Life working in some of the toughest neighborhoods. When I started selling real estate my first listing was in Wilkinsburg - anybody know that neighborhood? When I was a loan originator - FHA/VA - my territories included the Hill District, McKeesport, Homewood Brushton.....know those neighborhoods?? As a closer, I closed in peoples homes for years before anybody heard of notary signing agents in western PA - now that I am lucky enough to work from a desk and examine titles, I no longer go out and do closing, however, my staff and I serve all areas - do many transactions for homes priced under $30,000 - everybody gets the same great service.

Nobody has ever given me a goddam thing. I have been working my ass off all of my life. I have worked with children in homes like that and worse. I went to school with children like that, did you?

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/23/07 9:20pm
Msg #227516

Re: Diane, you still did not answer the question.

I have found myself in homes as Lisa has described and have not hesitated to phone the Florida Children and Families or Elder Abuse hotline. Granted, I have only done it once, but there were both elderly people and young children living in a horribly infested home. The place was crawling and I mean crawling with German cockroaches, not palmetto bugs. There were cigarette butts and ashes all over the floor, broken, filthy furniture and tables, but they did have a 60" big screen blaring an R rated movie with a 3-4 year old in the room. It was 90+ outside yet every window in the home was closed and they had no A/C...just fans circulating the retched smell.

Being poor has nothing to do with being clean or providing a decent home with the basic necessities. I've been there, don't tell me I don't get it.

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 12/23/07 11:51pm
Msg #227528

What am I? Well, since you asked...

Diane Cipa writes: "Some goody two shoes who doesn't understand that some families have hardships that they work through and may be embarrassed about and don't need the government to come in and take children away from parents they care for - what are you?"

What I am is a member of the human race.
A mother.
A daughter.
A living, breathing, feeling human being.

Therefore, I am also affected. Affected by society... the good and the bad. Affected by situations I am thrust into during the course of eeking out a living to sustain my child in a safe and healthy environment.

I am human.
Complex.
Intelligent.
I have a soul; something some would argue is the only thing that keeps us at the top of the food chain.

And I am real, Diane. Just as real as those children.

They aren't just some number in Section III of a 1003. They aren't just some tax deduction on Line 6c of a 1040A. They're more than that, and at the very least, they deserve that someone should care about them and the situation they are in through no fault of their own.

I wasn't being smarmy when I asked you the honest question about whether or not you'd been in peoples homes such as us lowly, nosy notaries are on a daily basis. It was an honest question and was met with a very hostile response. Frankly, I am quite surprised at your reaction, Diane.

I never asked you to detail your impressive resume. I was merely looking for a reason that you seemed so cold when it came to the integrity of the situation with the children, yet so emphatic when it comes to the integrity of a mortgage? Again, I think that is a fair question. I thought, perhaps, that you hadn't experienced the situation first-hand. Now I know that that isn't the case. Now, I am not only bewildered at your response, I am appalled.

And finally, yes... I can go toe-to-toe with your resume wherein poor people in rough neighborhoods are concerned. I managed 350+ ReCD low-income housing units throughout rural Missouri and Kansas, which is the methamphetimine manufacturing capital of our country. I have witnessed unspeakable horrors that do not bear repeating in this forum.

And as an aside, this situation had absolutely nothing to do with income/money/status that you reference in your post. The woman was a medical professional, the home appraised at more than $275,000, and Naples, Florida is the 'Platinum Coast' with some of the most consistently high property values in the nation.
The situation, on its face, fits none of the demographic criteria you seem to imply in your post.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/24/07 5:26am
Msg #227529

...

I don't know you all personnally and you don't know me, that's certainly a fair statement.

I took offense at this statement...

"Just out of curiousity, have you performed closings in the Borrower's home? If so, how many would be your best guess?
My reason for asking is purely mathematical. I've been in nearly 1000 different, unique homes in the past couple of years. Most people in most occupations, even very social people, cannot say the same. Your friends, family, and colleagues most likely live a life quite similar to your own, which can lead to an insulated perspective."

It may have not been said with the force with which it was received however, I do apologize if I overreacted.

Reply by CF on 12/22/07 9:38am
Msg #227371

I do feel bad for you....and I too would want better for those children. It is very sad and disturbing that they have to live that way....and maybe with the pill bottles there is cause for neglect. I have a very soft spot for kids and it kills me to see them in a bad situation. That really is too bad! You have to do what your gut tells you to do!

Reply by Calnotary on 12/22/07 9:40am
Msg #227373

I wonder what their insurance will say if they see the property condition.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/22/07 9:46am
Msg #227374

No, Lisa. I have never been in a home where I felt anyone was in danger of filth, neglect, or abuse. I'm lucky, I guess. Do what your gut tells you. If I had to guess I'd say your gut is saying to call someone about the conditions you observed.

Reply by Lee/AR on 12/22/07 9:47am
Msg #227376

I'd ask myself 'what is the most logical outcome of reporting this?' Can I live with that result--knowing I caused it? Seems to me that as kids get out into the world, they get a better perspective of 'normal'--and make their own decisions. Sounds like the tree-trimming, Christmas present-wrapping daughter understands this.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/22/07 10:08am
Msg #227379

I think Lee's giving some wise advise. It's very, very hard to avoid judging others who live differently than we do. Dirt washes off - trauma doesn't. It might be the way the picture was presented to us, since you were there and we were not - but it didn't leave me with a sense that the children were in danger, unhappy, fearful, ill, or in a situation worse than the proposed 'solution'.

Reply by DebMsocal on 12/22/07 10:16am
Msg #227381

Instead of calling CPS or DSS or whatever it is called in your area, perhaps it would be better to make a call to your local Health Department. It seems that this situation would more likely fall under their jurisdiction. I am also sure that the fire department would like the front yard to be cleared. JMHO

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/22/07 11:54am
Msg #227406

A call to the Health Department will probably lead to them calling CPS...if the conditions are that bad (and I have no reason to doubt Lisa's observations as she NEVER posts about individual signing conditions) once the HD gets in there they'll have an obligation to act - they won't have the "luxury", if you will, of walking away as you did, Lisa...

If the stench is that bad you have to know it's also coming off the children at school. I'm surprised the school officials haven't investigated - unless the kids are home-schooled (even more frightening under these circumstances).

My personal, humble opinion is that if the home conditions are such that I can't breathe and make my eyes water, that's unhealthy for kids AND adults alike - I'd make the call.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 12/22/07 10:16am
Msg #227382

Lisa wrote:, “[t]he stench of feces made my eyes water, and they have no kids in diapers.” And most disturbingly, “[n]o evidence of food, but plenty of prescription pill bottles strewn about.”

The stench of feces more likely then not, suggests that feces is present. This can seriously make a child sick.

Not having food is one of the obvious signs of neglect.

Does Lisa have a good reason to call Child Protective Services? IMHO, yes!

Reply by Ernest__CT on 12/22/07 10:18am
Msg #227383

Make the call. n/m

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/22/07 10:46am
Msg #227392

Yes n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 12/22/07 11:18am
Msg #227395

This is a real sticky wicket! The good news is:

if you make the call DCF prob. won't get out there prior to Christmas, in which case you won't have upset the family for the holidays. Sounds as tho a social worker needs to give counseling on clean up if nothing else. Health dept. may be a better way to go, and if there is that much junk outside, code violations need to be addressed. Almost all are anonomous - just don't call humane society - they will tell who made the call.

Reply by Stamper_WI on 12/22/07 11:31am
Msg #227402

Re: This is a real sticky wicket! The good news is:

My youngest has a little freind that used to hug me every time she saw me and ask to come visit. Every time I invited her and her Mom over, the Mom declined. The child looked well cared for and fit in socially with the others. Something wasn't right in the way she begged to come over. A few yrs later her Dad went to jail for sexually abusing her. I wish I had trusted my gut and at least expressed my concerns to the teacher who saw a lot more of her than I did.
A few years later I acted quicker when I saw brusing on another, teenage girl. She told me her mother threw a heavy framed painting at her. I knew her mother was mentally ill and acted up when she didn't take her meds. I called the gym teacher and told her what I saw and asked her to see if there were more bruises, The teacher did see more and quickly called child services. They left it up to the girl whether she wanted to stay with her mom at that point because she was turning 18 and graduating soon. But it was a heads up for the parents and the father literally stood over the Mom to take her meds.
My point is, there is no harm to report what you saw and express your concerns. I still feel horrible about not exploring that first child's situation. I believe your identity is protected. Think of it as a welfare check. At best their pride may be preventing to get the help they need.

Reply by OR on 12/22/07 11:59am
Msg #227408

Re: This is a real sticky wicket! The good news is:

IMO you should make the call asap. You can tell the department of Children's Protection your experience/story and let them tell you if they think they need to know who they are and where to go to check on these kids. Good Luck

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 12/22/07 12:01pm
Msg #227410

Weighing in...

Others have already expressed how I feel, but I'll jump in anyway:

As a former foster parent and a current (inactive) CASA (court appointed special advocate for children), I have seen first-hand the damage (trauma, someone called it) caused to children taken from their homes. It doesn't matter if it was justified or not, the kids do not understand and it tears their world apart.

If the children are happy and whole, no amount of feces should rob them of that. Having said that, if you have any suspicion they're not, don't hesitate to make the call.

I also agree with those who say you have to follow your gut. Always.

Reply by Dianne Pickard on 12/22/07 12:36pm
Msg #227415

my two cents worth

I am an active CASA and I, too, have seen and continue to see the children involved in situations such as were described in this posting.

I would not hesitate to call CPS. They are supposed to provide 24/7 365 days a year coverage.

I have to take issue with the poster who said something to the effect of can you live with the situation you would "cause"... YOU would not be the causation of the situation if CPS were to step in. The parents who are not providing a healthy enviromnent for their children for whatever reason have created the issue. You are simply the catalyst for change if the appropriate governmental agency deems it appropriate.

If CPS thinks action needs to be taken, they will step in. If not, you tried to help someone you felt was in need and there is nothing more that can be done on your part.

God Bless.

Reply by CJ on 12/22/07 12:11pm
Msg #227412

I say MAKE THE CALL.

Child Services knows what is right and wrong. We have all been in clean houses and messy houses, and I think you are smart enought to know when it is beyond messy. When CPS shows up they can make the final decison.

When I was getting divorced (decades ago), my husband used to call CPS on me out of spite, and they would come over, look around, ask questions and leave. I was mad, so I did the same to him, and they said he was okay too. They can tell the difference becuase a mess and a problem. (All the kids are grown up now, and everything is fine.)

On the other hand, I grew up in a home full of sexual shinanigans. I had no idea things were wrong becuase I didn't know the law. I see articles in the news all the time for things that were going on in our house. I wish I could have called CPS for myself and my sisters and stepsisters. I think CPS coming to talk to my mom or even taking her away for a week would have been for our betterment. (For starters, she was a nudist, the neighbors came over nude, they wanted all of us teenage girls to be nude, called us prudes for declining. Plus she let us go out with grown men before we were even 15, BAD idea. She should have met them at the door with a butcher knife, instead she said, "Have fun, stay out as late as you like!) I became a Christian becuase I wanted the opposite of all of that. It was all traumatizing. That was also decades ago.

I can't see any harm in calling CPS, and you could really help those kids. How is anyone going to know to help these kids if you don't say anything?

Reply by CJ on 12/22/07 12:23pm
Msg #227414

Another story

I have friends whose house is SO bad, I have never been allowed inside, but my husband has. He says it's a pigsty with trash piled everyhwhere. (The insides of their cars are piled with trash up to the windows too.) When we go to visit, they keep us on the front lawn.

Anyway, one time they went on vacation. The teenage daughter secretly gave the key to a boyfriend. Boyfriend and friends got inside and had a pot party. They found a gun and started shooting at the neighbor's RV. Cops were called and the boyfriend said they were allowed to be there. But the cops noted the mess and got a hold of the parents and said, If you don't clean this up in a week after you get back, THEN we are taking the kids.

The problem is the wife and kids are totally passive and the husband has to do everything. So the wife and kids cried, and the husband called the pastor over to help clean. They did get the house clean and the kids got to stay.

So just becuase the authorities are called, does not mean they are going to kidnap the kids. They might get the house cleaned up, and come back and check on them. They do this all the time, just like we do our jobs all the time. I am sure they have more than one solution for a problem, just like we do.

JMHO

Reply by Rose/CA on 12/22/07 12:47pm
Msg #227416

make the call

As a school office manager years ago, I often had to call CPS in situations that were similar to the conditions described in this borrower's house. Not every call was followed up with an immediate solution, but at least it was a "wake-up" call for the family. It is heart-breaking to know kids might be at risk-but once you are made aware, you almost have to act in some way.jmho

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/22/07 12:49pm
Msg #227417

Re: Another story

**So just becuase the authorities are called, does not mean they are going to kidnap the kids.**

Correct.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/22/07 1:30pm
Msg #227418

It is a serious question, and an important one. Some time

back, I posed the question, "Are we mandatory reporters?"

I think we are all mandatory reporters, even while I agree with SueW and others who have excellent points. On the one hand, filth is a different animal than clutter, and is a health hazzard; on the other, the kids appeared unaffected, engaging, and 'normal.'

The health issue is a relatively 'easy' fix, with appropriate help, education, monitoring, etc. That said, as a CASA, I have met 'outgoing' kids who are deeply damaged because 'normal' to them is their particular hell. This abominable environment may be an indicator of serious problems, or it may not. How is one to know?

I would voice my concerns, if for no other reason than sometimes, a little sensible intervention can result in bettering a terrible situation. Providing a safe and relatively healthy environment for children is more than a social 'norm,' it is required of parents/caregivers for kids/elderly.

If the reporter makes clear the concern, a health issue, (as opposed to allegations of 'abuse,') then I would suggest that the best interests of the children have been served.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/22/07 1:55pm
Msg #227420

Re: It is a serious question, and an important one. Some time

**If the reporter makes clear the concern, a health issue, (as opposed to allegations of 'abuse,') then I would suggest that the best interests of the children have been served. **

Very well put, Susan. I am just as concerned for the parents as for the children. I have little patience with "normal" people who look at filth and assume that those living that way (usually in poverty) are making an honest choice to be in that situation.

I have seen totally "normal" people slip off the edge and become unable to keep their level of living from looking normal to sliding over to the dark side and looking crazy.

The degree of filth that Lisa describes is, in my "armchair psychologist's opinion" a type of filth that develops from some kind of mental degeneration. In other words, these are people in crisis.

One well-meaning lady who floated off the edge like that in my circle was bipolar...her children were in danger of neglect...and she just needed help getting a grip through medication and counseling. Things will always be touch and go for her but back then with a little help she was able to put things back together again for the kids and to figure out what to do for herself.

Often they don't even know there is help available for them. Family can often be in denial that someone is in crisis mode...but once they are alerted by outside intervention they snap out of it and start thinking about how to help out rather than criticize.

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 12/22/07 2:20pm
Msg #227422

Susan, I am SO in agreement...

I, too, believe we are all "mandatory reporters." We are all responsible, in some way, for the children within the sphere of our influence. In fact, I agree with your entire post. I hope my previous post is not misunderstood. My point was that, unfortunately, removing children from situations we (rightly) deem awful is not always better for them. Their mental and emotional health has to be considered, as well as their environment.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/22/07 3:48pm
Msg #227434

Agreed, Rachel - sometimes the authorities go overboard

as in the case of the dad who dropped his kids off at a public park and was arrested for child endangerment because he wasn't supervising. Clearly over the top.

And, true there are flaws in the system, but by and large, it works. If we turn a blind eye where kids are concerned, the system doesn't even get the chance to work. The state sets 'minimum standards' for parental behavior and home environs. CASAs are often faced with accepting these minimums on behalf of their kids, but the state cannot demand more than is allowable to reasonable and prudent minds. One recent case illustrates a success story: young single mom, lost daughter due to bad behavior and horrible living conditions. Temp foster care for daughter, mom never missed a visit, had parenting classes, housekeeping training/help, and tons of support from state and her family. When judge ruled on motion to dismiss, he was eloquent in his praises to mother for her hard work, and obvious willingness to accept responsibility to help herself. When he said "I am so happy to declare, case dismissed!" and banged his gavel, the entire courtroom burst into appaluse, including the judge. What a great day.

The trauma of removal can be severe, but if the end result is reunification with a better situation, it doesn't necessarily have to be permanent. Kids are very resilliant (sp?) I guess it boils down to the best interests of the kids, and everyone working toward that end.

Reply by Tess on 12/22/07 1:54pm
Msg #227419

Re: Either way you decide,

you could also make a call to the local clergy in their area and find out if they know of this family and see if they can make a visit and possible be of some assistance to them.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/22/07 2:15pm
Msg #227421

Respectfully disagreeing, this is over the line and out of

realm of reporting.

If the family were neighbors, this may be an option, but for a stranger to disclose personal information (names) to anyone other than proper authorities is dangerous for the family and the reporter, and could lead to unwanted consequences. Clergy are mandatory reporters too, and if these folks are church-affiliated, one would think the situation is already known.

Reply by Tess on 12/22/07 2:27pm
Msg #227423

That is your choice!

One may call a clergy for another if they so wish!! The family also has the choice to except or not except their help, all it takes is a no thank you!

Reply by Tess on 12/22/07 2:31pm
Msg #227424

Re: Dangerous??? In what way???

I have got to run, but please tell me! You do not have to divulge anything but the address!!

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/22/07 3:22pm
Msg #227430

I'm not saying that clergy can't be a resource in the

community, I'm saying that contacting local clergy is outside the scope of reporting and therefore, ill advised.

As for dangers, one could consider divulging the name or address of a business contact to a third party, for whatever reasons, a breach of confidentiality. While conversations/confessions between clergy and his flock may have legal privilage, telephone calls from strangers do not. If the family were so inclined, they could have some recourse against you for violating their confidential information in your professional capacity. The reporting of a possible health hazard for children to the proper authorities, on the other hand, is within the scope of mandatory reporters, but should be done after very careful consideration.

It is that very care-ful consideration that generated this question, I believe. And while I admire your resoursefullness in finding possible solutions, I remain convinced it is not in anyone's best interests to operate outside the perameters of reporting.

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 12/22/07 4:35pm
Msg #227442

Susan, I concur

The clergy, while a wonderful resource for many people, would not be the avenue I would choose in this case for the very reasons you've mentioned.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 12/22/07 5:57pm
Msg #227450

I'm with Susan and Lisa. The clergy are not the answer ...

... to this situation.

Even if you knew what church / synagogue / mosque the people (had) attended, it would still cross the line to make the call to their cleric. And way, way, way over the line to call any random religious organization in their neighborhood.

Call the agency for children's protective services.

Reply by NCLisa on 12/22/07 6:07pm
Msg #227452

I HAVE called child protective services after a closing...

I went to a home that had not a single flat surface available for the signing let alone to put a cup of coffee down on. There were dirty dishes in the sink, covering every inch of counter space, and on the kitchen floor. They had 4 dogs, more than 4 cats, and their was animal feces and urine all over the carpet, not to mention at least several weeks of garbage in the kitchen. The house of rotten food and garbage, and was infested with fleas and flies. Among all this was a 2 month old baby.

I left that closing and called child protective services. Don't know if anything happened, but at least I tried to do something.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 12/22/07 6:53pm
Msg #227460

Re: I HAVE called child protective services on a tenant...

I had a complaint from one of my other tenants because of a mildew problem that was obviously coming from the other apartment. When I investigated I found that the place was without heat and the humidity was extreme. They had two kids and the kids were sick. The family living there was Latino and did not speak English, I tried hard to convince them that they needed to run the heat but they did not want to incur the expense. I brought over two dehumidifiers and told them that they had to use them to try and dry the place up, a day later the dehumidifiers unplugged and parked net to the entry door and the kids were still sick. I tired to explain to them about the mold and the sick kids and the need for heat and the need to dehumidify the apartment and nothing happened so the next day I called child protective services and they responded immediately, they explalined to the parents that if the did not comply to correct the environmental problems that they would take the kids away and that took care of the problem. It also turns out that they would not take the kids to the local community clinic (very reasonable and usually the medicines are included in the cost of subsidized visits) since they did not qualify for welfare (made too much money) because they did not want to spend the $15 for a clinic visit. Some people just don't take good care of kids.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/23/07 8:53pm
Msg #227513

I know a very brave lady in the same

circumstances as a volunteer for the Salvation Army who regularly visited family like this. Know what she did? She cleaned their houses - nothing more nothing less though I presume she did say some prayers on their behalf.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/24/07 7:18am
Msg #227533

Re: I know a very brave lady in the same

Brave is right. Hopefully this angel of mercy has a clean room type suit with its own oxygen supply to wear.

These types of messes aren't about washing glasses with clabbered milk in them; this is hepatitis city...deadly stuff.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 12/24/07 9:39am
Msg #227541

Brenda, you're so right!!!!!! :) n/m

Reply by Charles_Ca on 12/24/07 12:41pm
Msg #227561

Not all want it cleaned and you have to have permission! n/m

Reply by Tess on 12/24/07 10:51pm
Msg #227609

After careful consideration, not a good idea!

With everyone suing everyone about the littlest things, I agree that it could cause you problems. I would like to think that if you help someone up, they will rise the rest of the way themselves. That is why I suggested help in the form of the clergy, not for faith issues but for neighborly help with cleaning, funds and food for those in need.