Posted by Elizabeth Soliday on 12/31/07 9:22am
Msg #228271

Cancellation Fees

I recently commented that we should have some kind of standard for cancellation fees, but I received these replies from others on this board:

Sue pa:

"one of my best all time clients receives rather nasty comments on this board every so often - the reason is they won't pay if the loan doesn't fund."

Calinotary:

"One of my best clients only pays $35 for a no sign, plus $25 for edocs if applicable. Is it annoying as hell to have driven 45 minutes and spent 30-60 minutes with someone only to have them not sign and know I'm only getting $35 for my time? Of course. But I'd rather lose the occasional 40 or 50 bucks than give up the $2000+ a month I've gotten from them on a regular basis for 4 years. That is called a no-brainer in my book."

So I ask, you (who constantly ridicule as if you are the queen bees of the notary biz), are you any better than a $50 notary lowering their standards and the value of our work? I think not.

To me, volume is no excuse for not being paid for cancellations or being paid squat...JMO

Reply by Eric2OO2 on 12/31/07 9:26am
Msg #228272

So you would risk $2k a month in volume over something so petty? That is not such a great business move.

Reply by sue_pa on 12/31/07 9:33am
Msg #228274

to each his own

You work your way and I'll work mine. By the way, I also work for $50. I'm not looking up my exact numbers in what you quoted here but I've made WELL over $100,000 from the company I am referring to. I've lost a few thousand due to not being paid for cancellations or no funds. I don't like it but it works for me. +/- $95,000 in my pocket or the principle of the matter - as Calinotary stated, a no brainer in my book. I'm glad you have the luxury of living a lifestyle that $95,000 means nothing to you. Get real.

I've said it before. If you 'dabble' in this business or you drive great lengths, each appointment is calculated differently than those of us who live in urban areas and work on volume. Apples to oranges.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 9:38am
Msg #228276

Re: to each his own

Unless you are working on a commission - contingency fee basis, providing services free of charge in exchange for referrals is a RESPA problem, a statutory notary problem in some states, and a statutory insurance problem in some states.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/31/07 9:40am
Msg #228277

Re: to each his own...HUH?

If this is the portion you're citing..."WELL over $100,000 from the company I am referring to."

She meant "WELL over $100,000 from the company I'm talking about"....no referrals in the actual sense of the word here..

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 9:47am
Msg #228279

Re: to each his own...HUH?

She is receiving referrals of jobs from this company. She implies that charging her fees for transactions that do not close would threaten that flow of referrals. She chooses to give free work in exchange for referrals.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/31/07 9:50am
Msg #228280

Re: Okay - sorry - I don't see it that way

I see it as not making a mountain out of a molehill with a good client (and yes, I've been guilty of just that...and Sue and CaliNotary made good points regarding this issue).

Reply by MikeC/NY on 12/31/07 10:54am
Msg #228293

You're misreading it

She's not talking about receiving referrals from a client - in context, "the company I'm referring to" clearly means "the company I'm talking about".

Besides, even if she meant "referrals", how could "the company I'm referring to" possibly be understood to mean she's receiving referrals FROM them? Wouldn't it be the other way around?

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 11:53am
Msg #228300

The word referral has specific

meaning in rules and laws concerning our business. Here's a portion of RESPA:

(a) Business referrals

No person shall give and no person shall accept any fee, kickback,
or thing of value pursuant to any agreement or understanding, oral or
otherwise, that business incident to or a part of a real estate
settlement service involving a federally related mortgage loan shall be
referred to any person.

Reply by Pat/IL on 12/31/07 12:20pm
Msg #228304

Re: Parsing the "Business Referrals" Clause

Printing Documents and/or travelling to an event that does not occur, or that does occur but nets no enrichment of any sort for any party involved in the non-transaction, constitutes:

a) A Fee
b) A Kickback
c) A Thing of Value
d) None of the Above

I would have to go with "d". If you consider the spirit of RESPA, you will note that it is a consumer protection act, designed to ensure that the consumer does not pay inflated fees for core services not rendered. I just don't see how opting not to charge a fee to the borrower when the borrower has received no benefit from the service, can be seen as contrary to the spirit of the law.

If you want to talk about the letter of the law, then you need to examine the different interpretations in the 50 separate states. If you have the time, go for it.

Personally, I would bill a cancellation fee. But I agree with those who have stated that it is a business decision and nothing more.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 12/31/07 12:24pm
Msg #228307

Re: The word referral has specific

Are you being obtuse on purpose?? Sue never used the word "referral" - you did, after misinterpreting what she wrote and taking it completely out of context.

Wouldn't it be easier to just say "yeah, I read it wrong", and stop this silly game you're playing?

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/31/07 4:46pm
Msg #228359

Ain't it amazing?

I"m beginning to wonder if Diane has the ability to simply have a discussion without running to her various manuals and codes and regulations. She sounds like some low level DMV employee who doesn't have the ability to think for herself, but can only parrot back what the rules are, no matter if it makes sense or not.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/1/08 1:03pm
Msg #228490

Re: Ain't it amazing?

I agree - it's either that, or there's a (possibly intentional) reading comprehension problem going on here.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 12/31/07 9:27pm
Msg #228431

Diane...Does your company always get paid full fee?

I think what was being "referred" to, was their individual decisions to continue accepting assignments from a company that only pays trip and print fees if the loan doesn't fund.
Which is well within their rights as a notary public and business owner.
I often probono work every year as a notary, and charitably donate some as a business owner.
I never heard anyone mention that the company would no longer refer work their way.
If I understand it the way you indicate, does that mean that borrowers or lenders should have to pay title companies full fee if the loan doesn't fund? If the borrowers utilize their RTC?
Does your company get paid full fee if the loan doesn't fund?

Reply by Gary_CA on 12/31/07 11:35am
Msg #228295

Pull your head out

While you're at it lend Elizabeth a hand and tug on hers too.

Providing a pricing structure that works for a client is not buying referrals in any sense of the word. It is perfectly legal to reduce your fee for whatever reason. Nobody ever mentioned a quid pro quo. Getting more work because you work with a TC's policies has nothing to do with referrals, or are you saying that under RESPA a TC can have no preference whatsoever as to vendors???

Ridiculous.

The only thing more ridiculous would be to cut off your nose to spite your face, as Elizabeth suggested.


Listen folks there's no such thing as a standard fee for anything these days and it's gonna get tougher, not easier. There's a time to stick to your guns and a time to let it go.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 12/31/07 9:36am
Msg #228275

Sue Plays in a Different League...

...than the vast majority who post on NotRot & that includes me. I know she'll be glad to respond in her own inimitable way (won't you, Sue!) but suffice it to say she's drawing upon experience most of us will never see. Her point which she made quite well is that she's not going to quibble over the small stuff when she's being paid in spades. Sue is NOT lowering the standards in our industry & to insinuate otherwise is ignorance of the facts in this particular case. JMO!

Reply by Elizabeth Soliday on 12/31/07 9:56am
Msg #228282

No professional works for free

If she is in a different league, has more work than the rest of us, then she can SET standards and chooses not to. I just think it's ridiculous for her to pick apart others when she lowers standards herself!

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/31/07 10:08am
Msg #228283

Re: No professional works for free

99% of title companies DO NOT charge a client for a search & examination if the deal does not close. Are they lowering the standards?

Many things have changed in this business over the past year and if you are not willing to change with the times, you will be out of business. In the past few months, many of my good clients have had to institute new standards for no close/ no fund deals, do I like it? No. Do I accept it? Yes. Why? Because I like getting that whopper 1099 at the end of the year and I see the benefit of being a team player with the companies that CHOOSE to hire me. I haven't lowered my standards, I have changed with the times.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 10:14am
Msg #228285

violates TIRBOP in PA

Yes, an they are violating their state insurance regulations as well as RESPA.

Reply by sue_pa on 12/31/07 10:19am
Msg #228288

paragraph, please n/m

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 10:23am
Msg #228289

TIRBOP

3.1 CANCELLATION CHARGE

If application is canceled after the Commitment is issued under Company or Agent Procedure, a minimum Charge of $100.00 is to be made for such cancellation.

Reply by sue_pa on 12/31/07 10:29am
Msg #228290

Re: TIRBOP

that was the only paragraph I figured you could mean. Diane, come on. That's referring to the title company/attorney receiving payment for the work they've performed on a loan that doesn't close. It in no way, shape or form refers to subcontractors.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 10:33am
Msg #228291

reply was responding to Becca's statement

"99% of title companies DO NOT charge a client for a search & examination if the deal does not close. Are they lowering the standards?"

Title companies in PA are violating TIRBOP when they do not impose a cancellation fee.

Notaries have their own state statutes - some of which concern contingency fees.

RESPA covers all settlement service providers including sub-contractors such as signing services and NSAs.

State title insurance regs regarding referral fees may or may not include the work of NSAs - that's yet to be determined.

The point is that taking cover behind others who do not follow rules isn't necessarily the correct move.

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/31/07 11:50am
Msg #228299

Re: reply was responding to Becca's statement

Well, good for PA.

In my experience, title companies in Florida rarely bill a client for a dead file or a file that doesn't close. Even in CA, at an assembly line escrow office, only a very small percentage of unfunded files were ever billed a cancellation fee. The fact is that the big lenders are not going to want to work with a title company that bills for files that do not fund.

Reply by dickb/wi on 12/31/07 5:58pm
Msg #228368

you may be talking about the anti rebate laws which......

most states have regarding insurance premiums charged.....in this case tha committment for title ins has been issued but the policy has not.....there fore there were no premiums paid that could be rebated.....you also have the rtc which allows a borrower to cancel even after the loan has been issued and there can be NO COSTS to the borrower......tile ins policies are not issued untill after a closing has occured and any rtc periods have been passed.....even in a purchase the title ins is not issued untill after the fact of closure.....a mortgage broker requires a licence [in most states]...because t6hey place a loan with a provider and recieve certain fees from the lender and borrower.....the app taker and the processors are merrely that and req no license...[in most states].....i think to many people get hung up on what is licensed and what isn't and the sames goes for upl....common sense should tell you if you are treading on upl or not....i see to much paranoia......jmho...[as a former ins agency owner and currently seving my 47th year as a real estate broker and 46th year as a Notary Public]

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 12/31/07 11:39am
Msg #228297

Take off the Title Company hat for a moment, Diane

This is a Notary forum, not RTT. TIRBOB is obviously written to apply to the Title Insurance Industry, not to independent contractors such as the lowly Notary Public.
While one can (and I have) argued that making my closing fee contingent upon funding is a violation of RESPA, I am also able to waive my fee as I see fit with no legal ramifications whatsoever. It is a business loss that is listed on my 1040A.

As to Elizabeth Soliday, with whom I have had many conversations regarding this (and associated) topics, I am with Sue on this one. We all make business decisions that are best for us, and us alone. That's the beauty of being self-employed and NOT chained to a desk in a Title Company.

For you to proclaim that Sue is lowering standards in this industry by accepting a calculated risk in her business practices by showing "good will" toward a very good client is unfair and terribly rude.
Sue is one of the most knowledgable, professional and helpful members of this board, and to call into question her business practices is incredibly unprofessional of you, Elizabeth.

I think you owe Sue an apology.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 12:01pm
Msg #228302

Re: Take off the Title Company hat for a moment, Diane

Lisa: Becca raised title companies and my comment concerning TIRBOP was in response to that statement with follow-up raised by Sue.

RESPA covers NSAs in a federally related mortgage loan transaction.

(a) Business referrals

No person shall give and no person shall accept any fee, kickback,
or thing of value pursuant to any agreement or understanding, oral or
otherwise, that business incident to or a part of a real estate
settlement service involving a federally related mortgage loan shall be
referred to any person.

In addition, state insurance or notary statutes may speak to the issue.

You are correct that each person, whether they are employed by another or an independent contractor may choose to interpret laws, rules, and guidelines and assess their personal tolerance for risk.

One of the functions of this forum, I believe, is discussion of those topics. I see arguments regularly posed here in which one or more may disagree on matters of laws, rules, or procedures.

Elizabeth, and rightly so, in my opinion, believes she should be paid for services rendered. I agree and in support of her position, I offer relative codified rules.

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 12/31/07 1:08pm
Msg #228320

Re: Take off the Title Company hat for a moment, Diane

"... referring to..." from Sue's post means 'in reference to', not as in 'sending a business referral to...', as would be the case if I were to refer a client to a TC. Therefore, TIRBOB does not apply in any way, shape or form to her post.

Becca raised TC's because... and I'm really reaching here.... we obtain our work from TC's.

Laws that govern and regulate TC's, in almost no instance, applies to us as independent Notaries Public. (GLBA & RESPA excluded, of course) Knowing Becca as I do, I believe that she's an astute businesswoman and has weighed the risks/benefits of her modified position regarding no fund/no pay policies, and has determined that flexibility in these difficult times is what will keep her at the very top of the game.

When performing closing services, I am there to identify the Borrower, witness the signatures and secure the documents for delivery to their final destination.
Since there is no fiduciary or agency relationship (which has been discussed ad nauseum) between myself and the TC or the Borrower, I am bound only by laws as they apply to the duties of a Notary Public, and of course, IRS guidelines when filing my taxes.

Another point to consider that came to mind when re-reading Elizabeth's posts (not directed at you, Diane). There's a little thing called 'price fixing', which is illegal no matter your profession or your location. I'd tread very lightly when attempting to set 'pricing standards', as even the discussion of setting pricing/pay standards is illegal.

Reply by sue_pa on 12/31/07 10:13am
Msg #228284

Re: No professional works for free

if you look at my tax returns, you'd see that I don't 'work for free'.


As for Diane's comments, I just say again that I feel those are her own thoughts and INTERPRETATIONS. My lawyer knows EXACTLY what I do, don't do and how I do or don't do it. You see, I am a businesss (and a paranoia freak) and I pay for legal advice and guidance. At a seminar for my local paralegal assoc. - conducted by the UPL committee chair - I was in the front row and my hand was up. I told him EXACTLY what I do. No problem in either of their views.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 10:18am
Msg #228287

failure of leadership

I do understand and I have had the same experience. We have had a failure of leadership in our trade associations and legal community. There isn't a sham operator who doesn't have an attorney standing next to him saying his actions as okay.

Every penalty imposed by state regulators against title underwriters and agents is imposed in actions they have been engaging in for years - including those discussed in continuing education classes. Regulators and lawmakers have had enough and are in the mode of enforcing guidelines.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 12/31/07 10:17am
Msg #228286

I'm Not Going to Defend Sue...

...for what she posts on NotRot to other members, especially the newbies (not that I'm classifying you as one). She replies in a manner which certain people could interpret as abrasive, but you can't say she's not honest. Be that as it may you're not seeing the forest for the trees in this "standards" situation you're trying to construct. JMO!

Reply by Gary_CA on 12/31/07 11:39am
Msg #228298

Re: No professional works for free... BS

Like hell they don't.

Every professional makes a fee exception now and again for their best clients.

What planet are you from???

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 12/31/07 3:49pm
Msg #228352

Re: No professional works for free... BS

I agree Gary

Try telling an attorney that does pro bono work occasionally they he/she is not a professional.

Reply by Elizabeth Soliday on 12/31/07 6:47pm
Msg #228378

Re: No professional works for free... BS

Pro bono work is volunteering in my book. Notarizing for free because someone's making their will on their death bed is quite different than what I am talking about. I am talking about going into a job expecting a certain cost to be paid for your work, then being stiffed or your fee lessed by no fault of your own. If I print and make a trip INTENDING to be paid and not volunteering, then I should be paid for at least up until the point of cancellation.

Reply by BobbiCT on 12/31/07 9:42am
Msg #228278

Charging/Not Charging Cancellation Fees

As Independent Contractors, we each compete against each other for local business, which includes deciding to impose or waive cancellation fees.

I have neither "lowered my standards or the value of my work." Quite the opposite. I continue to find that in the real estate industry "good will" has an acceptable financial rate of return.

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/31/07 9:51am
Msg #228281

>>>So I ask, you (who constantly ridicule as if you are the queen bees of the notary biz), are you any better than a $50 notary lowering their standards and the value of our work? I think not.<<<

Nice attitude there, Lizzy. Did someone piss in your Cheerios this morning?

Nothing like throwing the baby out with the bath watter. Let's face it, some people are just not cut out to be good business people...and you sound like one of those people.

Reply by Lee/AR on 12/31/07 10:39am
Msg #228292

Re: Cancellation Fees--a rural view

Hey... if some co. I get business from a few times a year wants me to drive for 1 1/2 hours one way, you darn well better believe I want to be paid! Volume is non-existant around here.
So, yes, I do address this issue--over & over--and most co's see my point. P.S. Sue did make this 'exception' to her blanket statement. IF I had the kind of volume Sue has, darn tootin' I wouldn't make a fuss over the infrequent no-sign.

Reply by SReis on 12/31/07 11:11am
Msg #228294

What about an ethics violation???

I'm only addressing loans that do not fund here & I know this will vary from state to state w/diff. notary laws/regs but as I see it in MA it would be a clear violation of notary law if our pymt would be contingent on whether or not the loan was to fund. We would then have a clear financial stake in the transaction & therefore be no longer able to notarize the docs. Again this is my own interp of MA notary rules NOT any others. I know Becca has eluded to this in FL as well. I would be interested to hear other people's perspectives on this.

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/31/07 11:57am
Msg #228301

Re: What about an ethics violation???

You're right, Shannan. In the past, I have said that by making a notaries pay contingent on the loan funding, it would give the notary a financial interest in the transaction. I spoke with a very good friend of mine, an atty, about this and he said if that were the case, then title companies with in house notary closers would be breaking the law and that is just not the case. His point...there is no DIRECT financial interest.

So, here I am doing what I need to do to stay in business. The title companies that I work with here in Florida, just don't bill for canceled deals and have instituted a new no close fee. I don't like it, but I have to deal with it if I want to continue to work with them. Yes, I have changed my stance on the issue. Either I changed with the times or I lost the business.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 12:08pm
Msg #228303

loss of business

It is the threat of the loss of future referrals that stops people from charging for services rendered, whether you are a NSA, a title agent, a abstractor, a surveyor, a termite inspector, or an attorney.

Each of these services have value.

What I find really fascinating is the case of the NSA is that you have mortgage lenders who have done a terrible job of working with and for their borrower. They steal your time and effort in an attempt to cajole or push the borrower into completing the transaction.

Most of the transactions you see cancel, I have to guess, cancel due to lender or mortgage broker ineptitude. They are using and abusing you.

If they were forced - by adherence to good practice and rules - to pay for the NSA, either out of pocket or by charging their borrower up front as with appraisals, they might change the way the handle their transactions. They might make certain that the borrower intends to close before you even go to the table. Wouldn't that be interesting?

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/31/07 12:28pm
Msg #228310

Re: loss of business

>>>Most of the transactions you see cancel, I have to guess,<<<

Not the case, Diane, not at all. Very few deals end up a no close or a no fund, In my experience. After you've been doing this awhile, you learn what lenders/brokers to stay away from. There are some real winners out there, that's for sure. You just have to learn who is not worth the time and effort.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 12:49pm
Msg #228314

Re: loss of business

"Most of the transactions you see cancel, I have to guess, cancel due to lender or mortgage broker ineptitude."

I did not say most of your transactions cancel. I said that I would have to guess that most cancellations are due to lender or mortgage broker ineptitude.

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/31/07 1:04pm
Msg #228319

Re: loss of business

Sure, there is lender ineptitude. There is also title ineptitude.

Reply by Pat/IL on 12/31/07 12:29pm
Msg #228311

Re: loss of business

Diane said: "They might make certain that the borrower intends to close before you even go to the table. Wouldn't that be interesting?"

If that little suggestion in the proposed Uniform Closing Instructions, pertaining to sending the papers to the borrowers in advance of closing, should become standard practice, I think it will go a long way toward avoiding this problem. I would add to that a notice saying: "If you don't understand the terms of this transaction after having read these documents, contact your attorney."

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 12:49pm
Msg #228315

I agree. n/m

Reply by Elizabeth Soliday on 12/31/07 3:25pm
Msg #228347

Re: loss of business

Not only is it fair for the amount of time and effort we put in, but it also makes people accountable for getting things right before we get to the table. I have always hated "surprise" loans; if we were paid for cancellations, surely they would be more concerned about informing the borrower on his/her loan terms, because it would be THEIR loss every time once cancelled....not ours.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 12/31/07 12:39pm
Msg #228312

"If They Were Forced"

Now there's a quote worth discussing. There've been numerous back & forths on this board about whether we need or even want more government involvement in what we do. If "they" (lenders, title companies, or signing services) are forced to pay NSA's for the valued services the've provided there could quite possibly be a resulting compensatory reduction in what they're willing to pay as a "fair" fee. It's simple economics coming into play.

We need to remember this thread began with Elizabeth singling out Sue for criticism for conducting her business under the current NSA business model (which I've always referred to as the Wild, Wild West). If we want to change gears & start discussing where the NSA business model SHOULD be under an actual set of enforceable rules, then that's another conversation. It's nigh impossible to accuse someone like Sue of lowering standards when there's none there to begin with.

Reply by Elizabeth Soliday on 12/31/07 3:32pm
Msg #228349

Diane these are my thoughts as well

I don't think we should be the butt of all miscommunication (which I believe is the most common reason for cancellation), there needs to be accountability on their part, and that is our pay for our services.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 12/31/07 12:23pm
Msg #228306

So I guess the reference towards the aforementioned

breakfast cereal now has a different meaning. Now that we see that you have adjusted your practices I would guess that (Lizzie) your term can also have her policies even though they don't go along with your new enlightened policy.

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/31/07 12:41pm
Msg #228313

Re: So I guess the reference towards the aforementioned

It has nothing to do with enlightenment, Phillip. It's about what makes good business sense. If you and Lizzie are happy to lose a client that sends you ample business because 1 out of every 25 deals don't close and you don't get paid, have at it.

So many metaphors come to mind right now...babies, trees, noses.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 12/31/07 1:12pm
Msg #228321

Bathwater is recycled,trees growing gangbusters and

everytime I look in the mirror I see my face even though a bit more wrinkled than the day before. I'm not one to cry over spilled milk (there's a metaphor you didn't mention) and I realize that every seed planted doesn't sprout (another one for you).

It seems to me that she stated her position and you decided that she was hapless and perhaps too stupid to be in this business or any business according to your standards. I was just wondering when the sheriff passed away and you took his stead?

Reply by Becca_FL on 12/31/07 1:30pm
Msg #228325

Re: Bathwater is recycled,trees growing gangbusters and

As I said, Phillip, have at it. As others have said, it's your business, run it as you see fit...even if it doesn't make good business sense.

I took issue more with how Lizzie said what she said NOT what she said.

Why such a piss ant, Phillip?

Reply by Philip Johnson on 12/31/07 2:23pm
Msg #228333

I hate to see good breakfast cereal demeaned. :) n/m

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 12:51pm
Msg #228316

huh? n/m

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 12/31/07 12:53pm
Msg #228317

Re: huh?

Babies: throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Trees: can't see the forest for the trees.
Noses: cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.

Reply by DianeCipa on 12/31/07 1:36pm
Msg #228326

truly it was the breakfast cereal

that threw me.

Reply by Elizabeth Soliday on 12/31/07 3:23pm
Msg #228344

Re: What about an ethics violation???

I have mentioned this before. You have an interest in the transaction when you are not paid for your work. If there were a scale representing your interest, it would be more weighted on the lender's side rather than the borrowers', meaning you are not the disinterested third party as you are supposed to be.

What would happen if appraisers didn't get paid if the home didn't appraise for enough? Would their ethics be compromised?

Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/1/08 5:12pm
Msg #228507

What ethics violation?

<< You have an interest in the transaction when you are not paid for your work. >>

I used to think the same way, but after more thought I realized I had it all wrong.

If you have an interest in the transaction when you don't get paid, then you must also have an interest in the transaction when you DO get paid. It's two sides of the same coin - you get paid or you don't; either way, you create your own "interest in the transaction" by defining payment as the criteria for a properly completed transaction.

The reality is that, outside of notarizing the signatures on a few documents, none of the rest of the stuff we do - including printing, traveling, sitting at the table watching the borrowers read the documents, packing it all up and dropping it at FedEx, etc. - has anything to do with being a notary. All the rest of that stuff is a business transaction between you and the company that hired you. At most, the argument you can make as a notary is that you're entitled to collect $X each for Y number of signatures (or documents, depending on your state); their refusal to pay your notary fees if the loan doesn't fund doesn't suddenly give you an interest in the transaction. The rest of it is a business dispute, and while it may suck when they don't pay, it has nothing do with violating notary ethics because you weren't acting as a notary when you did those things.

As others have said, do whatever works for you. Personally, I think refusing work on the off chance that a loan won't fund and I won't get paid is a really bad business decision - for me. Your mileage may vary. Of course, if I had a client that was screwing me that way on a regular basis, I would quickly decide not to continue the relationship, but I don't have clients like that.

Ultimately, you decide how to run your business, and it has to be something you're comfortable with. Don't knock others because they don't have the same business plan you have.

As for trying to frame nonpayment as an ethics violation? Sorry, but as some of my southern friends say, that dog won't hunt...

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/31/07 5:50pm
Msg #228367

"To me, volume is no excuse for not being paid for cancellations or being paid squat...JMO"

So hypothetically, if you had a company that was going to guarantee you 200 signings a year, but was only willing to pay $35 for a no sign, and you, knowing the percentage of signings that you currently have that are no signs, you're saying you would turn down this company flat? You'd rather give up 180 or 190 paid signings per year than give up $40 or $50 or however many bucks on 10 or 20 signings per year?

To me, not being paid for occasional cancellations is no excuse for turning down volume work.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. EVERY business in every industry has to deal with the occasional loss. And the customer is the one who pays for it in the end by paying higher prices. So tweak your fees to get the occasional higher fee to make up for the occasional lost fee. To just snub the business in the first place is plain idiotic. Principles don't may the rent.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 12/31/07 7:42pm
Msg #228397

Wow, what a long thread for a black or white issue.

You know the terms of the company that hires you before you take the job. If you don't like the terms for no signs and cancels then don't take the job.

I admit to being on the side of having big brother help me out in receiving payment. Some of you may remember that. But after thinking it through, I regained my sanity.

My volume is down this year mainly due to the fact that I have taken my semi-retirement more to the retirement side and have been out of town a lot. But I still have managed 150+ signings this year and only 1 did not sign at the table and I got a travel fee and 1 was a rescind and I agreed to a 1/2 fee to a company that has sent me a lot of business in the past. I don't see it as an issue that I need big brother's help on.

Big Brother has proven to be a big dummy and seems to screw up whatever he touches lately. I don't need him for this. I need him to get out of my way ......