Posted by Susan Fischer on 12/18/07 10:52pm
Msg #226782

Credible Witness - (from tonight's chat) What is

your state law regarding Credible Witness?

In Oregon, the witness must be personally known to ~both~ the signer and the Notary. Very rare. A casual business relationship with the signer (say, a RE agent for property purchase,) or a caregiver in a professional capacity (i.e., nurse/attendant) do not qualify under the riggors of "Personal knowledge."

Many states are eliminating the Credible Witness avenue of identification altogether.

I'd be interested in hearing the definitions of CW in other states, and, learn which states do/not allow CWs for IDing.

Reply by Stamper_WI on 12/18/07 11:15pm
Msg #226785

WI has no guidelines other than knowing both the signer and the notary. WI also has the vague "satisfactory ID" in other words the current UCC notary proceedure recomendations (which are being revamped as we speak).
In this case The realtor is also a neighbor and had 2 prior completed real estate transactions with the couple. I also saw both their birth certificates and the wife actually had a SS' card with her married name on it. All duly noted in my journal. I also had the credible witness sign the journal. The realtor explained the title affidavit to them where they had questions.
I had a conversation a couple of years ago with the SOS about this and this is acceptable to him. I also asked one of the local banks how they dealt with ID'ing the Amish and they set up the credible witness using the elders when Id'ing anyone they didn't personally know. This is a long established amish community. Old amish that speak english only to "the English" as they call us.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 12/18/07 11:15pm
Msg #226786

Illinois is the same as OR. Credible witness must be both known to both signer and Notary.

Reply by jba/fl on 12/18/07 11:34pm
Msg #226789

Florida: CW must know signer. If only one CW, must know signer and notary to estab. chair of personal knowledge. If 2 CW, neet not be personally know to the Notary but must be id-ed through an acceptable id doc listed under "ID Docs"

Reply by PAW on 12/19/07 7:05am
Msg #226823

And meet certain criteria

"... a notary is asked to notarize the signature of a person who does not have, and cannot obtain, acceptable identification." (Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries, pg. 33)

"A credible witness affidavit can be used when the signer has no form of identification. This form of identification is used only rarely and not as a matter of convenience, usually when the signer is an elderly person, a minor, or a person with a disability." (Notary Newsletter from Linda Adams, Notary Education Coordinator, State of Florida - http://www.flgov.com/pdfs/not9808.pdf)

"Once the identity of the two witnesses is proven, the two witnesses must sign a sworn written statement that each of the following are true with regard to the person whose signature is to be notarized:

1. He or she is the person named in the document.
2. He or she is personally known to the witness.
3. It would be very difficult or impossible for him or her to obtain another form of identification.
4. He or she does not possess any of the identification documents specified in F.S.A. Section 117.05(5)(b)(3).
5. The witnesses do not have a financial interest in the underlying transaction and are not parties to it."
(F.S.A. Section 117.05(5)(b)(2))

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/19/07 12:03am
Msg #226793

Interesting differences. n/m

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/19/07 2:27am
Msg #226814

In CA

Any 2 random people can be used for any reason at all, up to and including when the borrower just doesn't feel like running out to her car and getting her purse.

Reply by Gary_CA on 12/19/07 9:03am
Msg #226834

I predict coal in your stocking n/m

Reply by MichiganAl on 12/19/07 9:35am
Msg #226839

Nah. Santa like's a sense a humor.

I predict a coupon for a free one year listing with the NNA.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 12/19/07 10:11am
Msg #226844

Dream on. n/m

Reply by Gary_CA on 12/19/07 2:28pm
Msg #226883

For $800 Alex, "Things worse than coal in your stocking"

What is a one year membership to NNA?

Reply by rengel/CA on 12/19/07 11:25am
Msg #226852

Gee Cali,

I must have a different Notary Handbook than you do. That's not what I understand it to read.

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/19/07 2:34pm
Msg #226885

Re: Gee Cali,

Then you're interpreting it too strictly!

Reply by Terri Garner on 12/20/07 1:45pm
Msg #227059

Re: In CA

Two Credible Witnesses do not need to personally know the notary, but they do need to personally know the signer, who they are identifying as the person signing the document.

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by Vince/KS on 12/19/07 8:28am
Msg #226829

Credible Witness - Kansas - must be known by Notary n/m

Reply by Gerry_VT on 12/19/07 9:15am
Msg #226836

Re: Credible Witness (Vermont)

Vermont law is silent on the matter. The state's notary manual (http://vermont-archives.org/notary/guide/pdf/NOTARY%20GUIDE%202006.pdf) has a section on the liability of notaries, and mentions a 1968 California case where a "court held that a notary could be found negligent by relying solely on third party introductions or identification papers such as passports or drivers' licenses. The court focused on the need for personal knowledge of the identity of the signer by the notary." (page 10; things have changed a bit in CA, haven't they?)

The manual goes on (also page 10) to give some advise:

"Your greatest vulnerability comes from acknowledgments of signatures by signers you don't know personally. If you don't know the person to be who he or she claims to be, you have three choices. You may refuse to act. You may rely on a credible witness, who is personally known to you. Or, to be most prudent, you can insist that a credible witness personally known to you takes and signs a written oath, administered by you as a notary, that he or she personally knows the signer."

To summarize the advice in the manual, personal knowledge is best; lack of personal knowledge is grounds to refuse to act. Credible witness personally known to notary who swears an oath is second best, third is credible witness personally known to notary, and fourth is everything else, including ID cards & passports.

Reply by SharonMN on 12/19/07 3:59pm
Msg #226894

Re: Credible Witness (Minnesota)

Pursuant to Minnesota Statutes 359.085 Subd.6, a notarial officer has satisfactory evidence that a person is the person whose true signature is on a document if that person (i) is personally known to the notarial officer, (ii) is identified upon the oath or affirmation of a credible witness personally known to the notarial officer, or (iii) is identified on the basis of identification documents.

The credible witness option (ii) would mostly come into play in a business environment, where (for example), Executive #1 (known to me) brings Executive #2 (not known to me) to my desk to sign something. You could also notarize for your grandma's best friend this way. It is unlikely to be usable with strangers.

While looking this up, I noticed that Minnesota has now created a snazzy little pamphlet of notary basics and continues to update the notary website with better info. So much better than when I first became a notary. Hooray!