Posted by Pierces Notary Services on 12/28/07 12:39pm
Msg #227992
OT - epilepsy in dogs
Does anyone out there have a dog that has epilepsy? I'm at my wits end. Mine had a cluster of seizures this week and come to find out they believe he has epilepsy and will have to be on meds for the rest of his life which one of the side effects is liver damage. They tested him for lead poisoning which came back negative today so that is the general consensus that it must be epilepsy. I'm so upset because he's my baby.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 12/28/07 12:50pm
Msg #227998
If I were told that my dog had epilepsy, the first thing I would do is to start feeding them nothing but meat, cheese and eggs...and try that route while researching it. Not that this is a proven fact for dogs, but in children a low carb, low sugar diets show good results against seizures. It would be a place to start anyhow.
Most dog food, especially dry, has filler in it. Filler is some type of carbohydrate bearing substance.
Dogs may need other nutrients which aren't found in meat, cheese and eggs...so I'd research that and seek to give them some type of vitamin. I have found that b/c there are so many vets now that vets will often find reasons to treat pets with fancy medical treatments when perhaps all they need are homopathic solutions.
Don't expect your vet to agree with anything I have suggested as an alternative to medication. Perhaps with lowering the sugar/carb content of food you can do with less medication and salvage the liver function.
My suggestions are just that...a place to start researching.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 12/28/07 1:03pm
Msg #228001
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050201074138.htm
http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/KetogenicDiet.html
There are a couple of links to start with. Even though the second link says there's no real help by what I suggest for dogs, remember that studies are conducted by companies who want homopathic treatments to fail.
Another suggestion...if you go the meat/cheese route, feed more chicken at first supplemented by heavy whipping cream and cheese for fat. Dogs tend not to have allergies to chicken. Allergies are purported to cause canine seizures.
I swear we have poisoned our dogs along with ourselves by the concentrated levels of sugar and starches we have in our diets. Mankind and dogdom didn't start out eating that kind of sugary diet and I think we've created health problems for ourselves with sugar.
Giving the dog drugs will still the seizing, but how about the real source of the problem...something is causing it. The doc would rather just sell you on buying lots of time and drugs from him. Keep that in mind while getting an opinion on this from a vet.
Vets are good people, but just like the rest of the professionals in the world, they need to continue to have a thriving business. Holistic healing in both humans and animals cuts way into their income....so I feel that medical profs often don't really examine those alternatives.
| Reply by Phillip/TX on 12/28/07 1:17pm
Msg #228009
I had a dog with epilepsy, he was on a one pill a day regime for 7 years (he was 9 when we found out he had it). He would meet my mother at her car when she came home, walk her to the door, then run around to the kitchen door and sit there and wait for her to come through the house to give him is his pill. If she got sidetracked on the way, he would scratch at the door (patio door - not the screen) to remind her it was time for his pill. You could hand it to him, and he would take it without having to put it in his mouth or in some food item. He had a diet of mostly human food (leftovers) was an outside dog, but would not eat dry dog food unless it was Purina Dog Chow...
So my point is... the meds are not that expensive if the "child" is worth it to you. I would not give the 7 additional years that we had with Bubba for anything. It was so hard for me to lose him even after 16 years.
I have 2 inside dogs now that they go to the vet on a regular basis, they have vitamins that they take (you do not have to force feed to them, they think they are treats), and if either came down with epilepsy, they would get the best care that was out there.
JMHO
| Reply by Charles_Ca on 12/28/07 1:43pm
Msg #228011
We tend to forget that dogs are carnivores and their metabolism is designed after millions of years to consume meat not vegetables. I feed my dog Purina One in her dog bowl as a supplement since she eats only occasionally and is very active on a ranch. I also feed her fish and cheese on a regular basis and she absolutely loves both, she forages a lot and I know that she finds deer kills in the woods since I find the bones on the front porch picked clean. I have had a number of dogs in this environment and aside from getting attacked by deer they thrive on what they are fed. Fish oils have excellent properties for both dogs and humans. I have not had specific experience with epileptic dogs but like Brenda says Homeopathic medicine tries to emulate nature's methods of eliminating medical problems and I have found that the medical establishment tends to medicate while ignoring other treatment protocols because most of their education is funded by the drug companies. Human treatment seems to be forced into the same mold while ignoring what works for other medical philosophies.
| Reply by Pierces Notary Services on 12/28/07 1:57pm
Msg #228013
Thanks for your input - I totally agree with what you are saying about the homeopathic approach - makes total sense to me - problem is that while I'm trying this alternative I don't want him having seizures that will be fatal - I asked the vet about not giving the medication due to the fact of the problem it could cause with the liver and she said the liver risk is lower than me not giving him the medicine for the seizures - what would I do in the meantime if he has them again - how long would it take being on that type of diet before I see any results. Right now I have him and he has been on Nutro which I have heard is an excellent food. His coat is very glossy - he doesn't stink like a lot of dogs do eating that pet food garbage and this is because of the food I believe although I'm sure it's not perfect but he also had hip dysplasia - diagnosed when he was 8 mos. old and he's now 2.5 years old. Still a pup in my eyes. I'm afraid to take a chance on him seizing w/o the meds and it being fatal.
| Reply by Marlene/USNA on 12/28/07 1:58pm
Msg #228014
For us more urban dog owners, I can recommend Solid Gold brand dog food - no fillers. Bob gets Barking At The Moon variety, mostly salmon. About $1.10/pound dry at pet stores.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 12/28/07 2:06pm
Msg #228015
**Homeopathic medicine tries to emulate nature's methods of eliminating medical problems and I have found that the medical establishment tends to medicate while ignoring other treatment protocols because most of their education is funded by the drug companies.**
That's all I'm saying...not saying that we shouldn't get great care for our pets...just that nature's way is both cheaper and more natural...redundant adjective, but true.
| Reply by Marlene/USNA on 12/28/07 1:47pm
Msg #228012
Re: "Dogs tend not to have allergies to chicken."
And my old vet, many years' experience, said chicken is the second thing after wheat that dogs develop allergies to, possibly because of what is in chicken feed these days. (Bob Dog has severe skin allergies.)
My new vet, much younger guy, more naturopathic, says "Balderdash!" and that beef is far worse.
The point being not that Brenda is wrong or my new vet is right.
You have to:
- Do your own research on TRUSTED sites (http://library.osu.edu/sites/vetmed/, http://www.library.tufts.edu/vet/).
- Find a vet you TRUST for reasons that are explainable only to you.
- TRUST your instincts, because only you really know your dog.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 12/28/07 2:09pm
Msg #228016
Thank you for the info, M.
I know this isn't notary stuff, but it is certainly important stuff...to us with notary dogs.
| Reply by Marlene/USNA on 12/28/07 2:14pm
Msg #228018
Yeppers
I'm trying to keep Bob Dog off steroids for this skin allergy thing, but diet changes aren't helping much, he's still on antihistamines. The only other thing that seems to work is tons of exercise to tire him (and me!) out so that he sleeps more.
Notary dogs are important, too!
| Reply by Stamper_WI on 12/28/07 2:12pm
Msg #228017
Other manifestations
I know 2 dogs with epilepsy. Both seem to be coughing or choking and in both it occurs when they get excited. None of the more classic grand mal stuff.
My brothers dog "Bean" hated his John Deere gator. Everytime it started up, Bean would go nuts. Followed by one of these spells. Also too many games (throwing stuff for him to chase) would do it as well. My neighbors beagle does the same thing when he meets people. Both dogs are on medication and are happy and healthy.
| Reply by NCLisa on 12/28/07 3:03pm
Msg #228022
I had an Aussie with severe epilepsy.
Her seizures started when she was 1, and we had to put her down at 5 1/2 which was this past Sept. (there are pics of her at http://www.hoofandpawpetsitting.com/pets.html). Idiopathic Canine Epilepsy is one of the hardest and most heartbreaking things I've ever dealt with. Email me, and I'll go into a lot of detail.
Preservatives can trigger seizures, buy nothing with BHT in it. If you buy rawhide, but it all natural presertative free. Feed only High Quality dog foods that have no fillers in them, Natural Balance, Candidae, California Natural, things like that. Make sure your vet gives you diazapam to administer anally or nasally immediatly after a seizure so you can break a cluster and not spend thousands of dollars at the ER Vet. They have less seizures the more tired they are, so if they don't have a playmate, then doggy daycare a couple times a week will do. If the dog isn't crate trained, I advise you do it now, you don't want a seizing dog getting injured in your house when you aren't at home.
I've got tons and tons of info. Unfortunately, Kali's epilepsy could not be controlled easily. She was on Potassium Bromide and Phenobarb for a dog 4 times her size, and at the end of her life, she was starting to have focal seizures, so we had to let her go. To the very end, when she wasn't having a seizure, she had no idea she was ill, and was just the most wonderful loving ball of energy on the planet. .....I'm sobbing now.
| Reply by Pierces Notary Services on 12/28/07 3:19pm
Msg #228026
Re: I had an Aussie with severe epilepsy.
Lisa - geez now you have my sobbing. They have him on Phenobarb currently and I was given a syringe of valium if he seizes again. I have to shoot it up his rectum. The vet said for the most part if he has a short seizure I don't have anything to worry about just diary it but if it lasts more than 5 mins or he has a cluster which he did on Sat. then I need to be concerned. I'm taking him back on the 5th to have his Phenobarb level checked. So far so good but it scared the crap out of me when he had these. I do keep him crated during the day because he gets in a chewing frenzy sometimes. We have a 5 month old pup that comes in at nite to keep him worn out too but right now the meds are making him sleepy at times too. I have him on Nutro lamb and rice - what do you think about that food?
By the way that is a beautiful pic of your Aussie - I'm actually in the middle of training my lab to be a therapy dog - he passed his CGC test a couple of months ago from the AKC. Another good thing is I do have health insurance for him but you have to pay for treatment up front and then get reimbursed.
| Reply by NCLisa on 12/29/07 8:40am
Msg #228111
Kali's canine epilepsy story. Long
The side effects of the meds wear off in 2 to 3 weeks. Kali, an all her meds was still a super hyper aussie, but everytime they raised the dosages, she was drunk for a few weeks.
Kali had her first seizure that we know about right after her first birthday, but I did notice some behavioral changes a couple months before, so they may have started prior to that. This first seizure was huge, my daughter and I were out of town (1st vacation in many years). Kali was at my parents, and they heard a noise, and then the poodle went nuts, when they got to Kali she was unconscious. She was taken to the emergency vet, stayed there until 8am, taken to her vet, by that time she was septic. She overheated, her bacteria in her gastrointestinal tract died and sloughed, some got into her bloodstream, she was a very sick puppy. She then was taken to Veterinary Specialty Hospital which is the premier dog/cat ER. She was there for 6 days, on IV's and 6 antibiotics. They told us every morning that she most likely wasn't going to make it, on the 6th day at 3pm they told us to come take her home, she'd made a dramatic turn for the better. She was a miracle to all the vets and techs there! They didn't give her any anti seizure meds at the time as they weren't sure it wasn't just a single episode. 3 weeks later, she had a cluster, and we started on the potassium bromide.
It took us 2 years to find a vet that had a clue on how to help manage Kali's epilepsy, the NCSU Vet School was also involved in treating her and she was in several gene studies ( I SO LOVE THE VET SCHOOL). Not all vets are good with epilepsy, we found out the hard way. Staff at one vet was so bad that twice they called in the wrong medication dosage on a prescrip and she started seizing severely in 2 weeks. Kali also could not get any vaccines but rabies, as she had seizures right after a round of vaccinations, tech gave her shots because she said all dogs must have them while she was there one day for a "levels check", that was another $1000 at the Vet ER. Don't ever worry about hurting your vets feelings if you don't think they are the one for this dog! If you have a vet school by you, get them involved.
Kali started out on the Potassium Bromide only because she was so young that they wanted to wait with the phenobarb. She had to start on the phenobarb about 1.5 years later as the potassium bromide alone was no longer working. She weighed 35 pounds and at the end of her life was taking 160mg twice a day of the phenobarb along with high doses of the potassium bromide. We had liver panels done on her twice a year at the vet school, and there was no liver damage.
Kali was prone to cluster seizures, usually between 11pm and 5am, but sometimes during the day. Most of the time the valium prevented seizure 2 or 3 and we just had to get her through the post ichtal state which would last sometimes minutes, sometimes hours, or sometimes days. The scariest thing is when you know they are blind after a seizure, and it happens, the eyesight normally returns in a few hours. I learned that immediately after adminstering the valium after a seizure to give Kali a teaspoon of natural vanilla bean ice cream with 4 sprays of Bach's Rescue Remedy. Yes, it made a difference. The ice cream is to help their blood sugar.
I learned to keep her away from all Purina products, any pet foods that had anything rendered in them, had fillers and preservatives in them. She was on California Natural for awhile, but she didn't like it. We put her on the Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Allergy formulas (they have 3 flavors and she loved them all) and that was the magic dog food. This poor animal could not have any dog treats, processed foods, etc. I gave her Kongs that were in the freezer for at least 12 hours stuffed with fat free cottage cheese, all natural peanut butter, non fat vanilla yogurt, apples, carrots, and other veggies. She loved those. She was a chewer, so I scoured the internet to keep her in preservative free raw hide (piggy stuff gave her the runs). The Fosters and Smith catalogue for rawhide became a very good friend.
I slept with my door open every night so I could hear if Kali was having a seizure. With grand mals, her body slamming into the crate was so loud. I'd get up, my daughter would get up, we'd pull her out of the crate and make sure her head was on something soft (you don't ever want to get near their mouth at this time). We'd talk to her...call her name, as that is supposed to help pull them out of the seizure. If she had more than 4 seizures in a 24 hour period she went to the vet, if she had more than 3 in a 3 hour period, she went to the vet.
One thing you really need to remember too, is that many vets don't have a clue as to how epilepsy works on the canine brain. Our final vet, and the vet school had a clue when I'd say that she had several new personality quirks after the lastest cluster of grand mal seizures. If you notice personality changes in your dog, and your vet thinks you are crazy, get a new vet. The tailess Kali was a wiggle butt, but after one group of seizures, that behavior stopped for almost a year. Sometimes she'd "play" totally differently, but there were always personality changes in her after the worst seizures. I also got to the point where I'd tell my daughter that I thought Kali was going to have a seizure that day, and she would. I was never able to pinpoint exactly why I thought that, but the vet school say that sometimes you just pick up on the little nuances, and just know. At the end though, she started have focal seizures too. Focal seizures are like a storm running through the brain, but they happen quickly. She'd be playing and just stop and go blank for a second, then snap out of it. But after 1 seizure she didn't recognize my daughter and went for her as in to rip her to shreds. (Kali would attack any human that was not a family member that was on our property, or in our house, she remained contained or tied at all times. When off the property she loved everyone.) But knowing she was no longer recognizing her family was when I knew it was the end. And the look on poor Kali's face when she snapped out of it, and realized that it was Allegra she was trying to get at was so sad.
The last 24 hours of Kali's life was all fun and love, and foods she never got to eat. We cooked her a 16 oz steak, she had ice cream and all kinds of junk food. We took her to our wonderful vet who sat on the floor of his office, holding her with us, and crying with us. Reminding me how that we gave her a life most people would have given up on long ago.
Also wanted to let you know that finding boarding for a special needs dog is very hard. Most kennels staff leaves at 6 and doesn't return until 8am. You can't have an epileptic dog unattended that long. So you may need to start looking for "medical" boarding months before you go anywhere.
Sorry this was so long, but I just kept going as thoughts came to me.
| Reply by Demore on 12/28/07 3:07pm
Msg #228023
To Pierces -
I have two small easy house dogs: A Pug and Shih Tzu. A Pug (Rocky) has breed-related health concerns which often interfere with his normal breathing, and this include seizure A Pug and Shih Tzu both suffer from breathing problem.
The first time this takes place, I did panic because did not know what did cause Rocky, a Pug to be in such pain and suffering. I did want to do something to make him feel better and to comfort him.
My reaction was to call his veterinary doctor. His doc told me that it is common in Pugs to have such seizure because Pug has problem with his nose.
I still don’t understand about a Shih Tzu suffering from seizure too.
I have done some research to understand what the problem with my adorable pets is and discover that some researchers are arguing that seizure and epilepsy convulsions (at night and only in their home environment) in dogs, the periodic sudden loss of consciousness; because most dogs suffering from idiopathic a disease that has no known cause. Another alternative research treatment called Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation: A Neurochronometrics of Mind is available at
http://bergware.net/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/additem.bbx?/Z111111/googlefroogle/I9780262232289
This book is about transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS)
However, the Department of Clinical Studies and epilepsy researcher John Ives of the University of Western Ontario are involved in this study and use TMS to improve understanding of the disease; and to discover abnormal genes and monitor the causes of epilepsy in dogs.
This research team looks forward to characterize specific breed-related epilepsy syndromes and compare them with human epilepsies. Even within dog breeds, seizure type and neurological signs vary; stated John Ives of the University of Western Ontario. These research teams argue that accepting these variations can be crucial for appropriate diagnosis and treatment of seizure episode in dogs. Also, this study involves common breeds suffering from canine idiopathic epilepsy (having no known cause for the disease): the golden retriever, Australian shepherd and Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever; it includes the dog’s history and performing a neurological examination which comprise of conducts an electroencephalography (EEG) to check up brain electrical activity in epileptic dogs. For this, research team uses these two types of equipment: EEG system for patients in hospital and an ambulatory system adapted for dogs in their home environment.
I hope this information help you to find a solution for you adorable pet and comfort he/she with the best treatment possible.
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