Posted by Lisa Prestegard on 12/4/07 10:00am
Msg #224175

Previous thread has been closed

due to advertising, I assume. Sorry, but I cannot respond to you via p/m for this reason.

Reply by Express Notary Service, Inc. on 12/4/07 10:08am
Msg #224176

Ok..Sorry about that...First timer...I just realized our company was rated pretty high here and thought it would be ok to jump in...I am letting notary rotary know as well...

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 12/4/07 11:20am
Msg #224183

I've a Question for You...

...regarding a comment from the below thread (message #224173) where you made the comment "Couldn't agree more...those were the best...the ones that printed at work...". So you're saying you knowingly hired SA's who were cheating their employers by stealing time & resources in order to complete their work for you? You KNEW they were doing that & had (or have) no problem with it whatsoever? I'd like to hear your explanation. If I've misunderstood your words please feel free to enlighten me.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 12/4/07 11:24am
Msg #224185

I was thinking the same thing Dennis!!! n/m

Reply by Express Notary Service, Inc. on 12/4/07 12:55pm
Msg #224213

Re: I've a Question for You...

Most of the employers were well aware their employees were using their printers, emails etc...however Im sure there were a few who were unaware.

Reply by jba/fl on 12/4/07 1:05pm
Msg #224214

Re: I've a Question for You...

Still didn't answer the question: You were ok w/that.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 12/4/07 1:14pm
Msg #224218

Re: I've a Question for You...

That is called theft and is grounds for termination. I have a business and my employees better never use my supplies for another job they have. Let's hope that your minimum wage (or a tad above) employees aren't doing that to you. That would be another story.

So, fellow business owners, do you let your employees steal your stuff to take to their other job?

Reply by Loretta Reed on 12/4/07 1:16pm
Msg #224219

Re: I've a Question for You...let me re-word that....

Would you allow your employees to use your paper & toner to print out about 200 pages for their "other" job?

Reply by Express Notary Service, Inc. on 12/4/07 1:19pm
Msg #224222

Re: I've a Question for You...

As I said most of them were in real estate and their emploters were well aware...I cannot speak for the notaries, or the employers they worked ,for who printed without the business owners knowledge. This is kinda silly though isnt it...real small percentages...not too many thiefs out there!

Reply by Loretta Reed on 12/4/07 1:23pm
Msg #224223

Re: I've a Question for You...

You have a right to freedom of speech but it seems to me, that every time you post, you dig your hole a little deeper. We all know who you are now. Best of luck and I hope that you have another idea for business because when the lender decides that they don't need us, they won't need you either.

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 12/4/07 1:23pm
Msg #224224

I take personal exception...

to your statement that "most of them were in real estate" as I am a licensed FL Real Estate Broker. And it isn't silly at all to broach this subject. The closers you have "no problem" with steal from their employers so that they can knowingly take assignments at a cut rate because they do not share with me the burdens of the cost of doing business. Highly unethical, to say the least... criminal, too.

FYI: Not one of the mobile closers that I am familiar with in my area worked in a RE office.
Most frequently, they were processors and EO's at Title Companies, or processors at Mortgage Companies. A few were customer service reps at banks.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 12/4/07 3:25pm
Msg #224243

I Believe It's Relevant...

...from many perspectives & it's not "kinda silly" at all. You've just stated these types of Notaries were the "best". In what way? That they can cheat their employers the "best"? Or is it that they cost you the least (making them the "best" for your SS) in spite of their thievery? I don't suspect I'll be too receptive to whichever answer "best" describes your personal feelings in this situation.

By the way, what would your "thief percentage" have to grow to before you decide enough is enough? Inquiring minds would like to know.

And to think some were critical of my use of the "P" word to describe how a SS fee should be described on a HUD.

Reply by CTS10866 on 12/4/07 10:50pm
Msg #224347

Re: I've a Question for You... Accessory after the fact?

What criteria are you basing the assertion that "most of the employers were well aware their employees were using" company supplies and technology for personal $$$ gain? What concerns me even more is the statement, "However, I am SURE there were a few who were unaware." Making a few personal copies or a personal phone call is not the same as processing packages and running a cottage industry on someone else's dime. Your statements appear to imply that you were in cahoots with the theft of services (e.g. knowledge of your vendors collecting a salary while not doing the specific job their primary employer hired them for, misappropriation of business supplies, possible petit or grand larceny depending upon how much money they racked up stealing, phoning and faxing to earn your payment). Please think about what you are saying in this forum... it is not a small thing to possibly be an ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT. In case you are unaware, whoever, knowing that an offense has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact; one who knowing a felony (e.g. grand larceny) to have been committed by another, receives, relieves, comforts, or assists the felon in order to hinder the felon's apprehension, trial, or punishment. U.S.C. 18

Reply by Express Notary Service, Inc. on 12/5/07 8:12am
Msg #224377

Re: I've a Question for You... Accessory after the fact?

Jeez...Cant you let it go....I made assumptions that some bosses knew and some didnt. .. and spoke frankly....I have never even asked a notary if they had their bosses permission to print? Its not our job...and quite frankly they would tell me they do everytime anyway...We have already stated we would not hire anyone who steals or is a theif. Would you tell a ss your a thief if they asked....and you were? Of course not...no one would ..and we are NOT alright with anyone stealing anything. Get over it! My god!

Reply by CTS10866 on 12/5/07 1:29pm
Msg #224422

Re: I've a Question for You... Accessory after the fact?

Yes, I can let it go and will be more than happy to. The point was to bring to your attention that there are people who will take this type of talk very seriously. A hypothetical example would be a small business that folded do to employee theft and/or the use of business records to subsolicit clients (diverting revenue) as one category of complainant you do not want knocking on your door looking to recoup a portion of its losses. Another hypothetical example would be a government employee at a state or federal agency who took advantage of the employer's resources, which means a state or federal investigation into misconduct, misappropriation, malfeasance, larceny, etc. The government, unlike a small business owner, would have no problem collecting the pin registers of its agency and doing a phone dump to compare it for every telephone line your company has ever owned to get the dates, duration and time stamps of all contact between the contractor, subcontractors and offending vendors. Making assumptions and generalizations can be construed as pretextual hindsight if one or more of your former vendors did high volume work for you and a search of business phone records revealed a probable cause paper trail back to your firm. Battling allegations are not just time consuming, they can be very expensive. Why open the door with sweeping generalizations that do you no possible good? You made sweeping generalizations about real estate professionals/notaries as well. I fall into that category because I work for REMAX People Realty. However, I pay for my own REMAX office telephone and dedicated fax line so that my calls are ALL my responsibility (not the Broker's) giving me the freedom to do my job and not worry about if I call home or my clients/parents out of state while on break. I have never once used my Broker's resources for anything other than his business purposes. I keep a seperate home office for my other business enterprises, maintaining insurance, supplies, four computers, two printers, two faxes and a small color copier all on my own dime. I'm a small business owner on a very tight budget and look dimly on flip remarks about employees taking liberties with resources that contractors may have an inckling about because of the frequency of contact at a business site during business hours. It doesn't mean I talking about you specifically, or that I wouldn't like you or your company, it just means I have to look at the assertion made it for what it is. You've opened the door to the allegation that you may have known what was going on by your comments. The transcripts of your posts paint a picture you may not have realized you were painting and may not have meant. Hypothetically, if calls to vendors at their sites of work, coupled with incoming and outgoing faxes to these cites and/or package acceptance/deliveries are discovered, then arguments could be made that a pattern and practice between offender beneficiaries exsists to substantiate the possible filing of civial litigation and/or criminal indictments against all parties involved. Due dilligence is a two way street... Stating one is SURE that something happened means there appears to be some basis of fact for the assurance. I've written this to clarify my intention of the post, which was to bring up the fact that you have no idea who may be watching, reading and forwarding information to initiate or substantiate a complaint based upon written statements revealed in a public forum (e.g. common public knowledge argument). Theoretically, your comments may assist or hinder cases already in progress on another matter. What if your casual chatter catches the attention of litigants in a case where the plaintiff alleges it is such a common practice and policy of the industry participants to wink, nod and look the other way regarding the questionable actions of public officials, that they were financially harmed due to the negligent hiring practices or deliberate gravitation of national companies to reward double-dipping unethical notaries because it saved $$$? All material issues of fact in disputes get to go before the court for resolution. Would you want this series of transcripts to be read into evidence at a hypothetical court trial? Would you want to be asked to testify? I would not want to have to explain my actions in a chat room in a court of law, but that is just me. This can all be nothing, or this can be something none of us wants. I'm not an attorney, I do not give legal advice, I'm just a retired law enforcement officer letting you know nothing good can come of some of your comments. Especially if it makes other people wonder if "the shady is afoot."

Reply by Lisa Prestegard on 12/4/07 1:19pm
Msg #224221

Regarding pilferage

Dennis, that is exactly why I brought up the subject. I've done my due diligence in this area, and happen to know with a fair degree of certainty that most of my not-so-esteemed peers were, in fact, a band of merry thieves... stealing from their employers at will, all the while undercutting those of us that are actually small business owners/operators.

And to clarify my response to the posters hypothetical question to me in the earlier thread, I do not leave my house for the fees you're offering to pay on a single refi... whether paper and toner is involved or not.

Reply by Linda Spanski on 12/4/07 1:28pm
Msg #224226

Pee-yew!

So, did you discussed the use of their employers' supplies with the notaries you hired? Must have, since you seem to know all about it. I'd say this speaks for itself concerning your ethics. Next question: if it's OK to steal from others, why should anyone believe you won't steal from a notary if it becomes inconvenient to pay her?

Reply by SReis on 12/4/07 1:44pm
Msg #224230

I am shocked by this reponse...

I may not agree w/his mssg BUT at the same time why should it be his concern whether or not the notary was using his/her employer's resources? Yes, the notary is acting irresponsibly but I cannot see why EXPRESS should be taking the blame here. He contracts the notaries services, I def, think its beyond his role to figure out where the notary gets the ink/paper to do the job. I wonder if this wasn't an ss posting if he would be attacked as strongly as he is.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 12/4/07 1:54pm
Msg #224232

Re: I am shocked by this reponse...

My point was, anyone that is doing this should be terminated from their job. I would just like to know if there are any employers here that let their notaries make copies of the loan packages before they leave the office. Signing service/notary/trashman, I really don't care, I don't think the majority of business owners would like to know that their sub-contractors are stealing from their other employers to due somoeone elses business.
If I'm not mistaken, if someone had not made the comment to begin with, I would not have replied to the situation.

Just my 2cents and, like a butt, we all have one Mine is just sticking out more today.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 12/4/07 2:19pm
Msg #224233

My 2 Cents worth

I have never used my employers (when I was not self employed) paper etc... I have had to make a copy of like a RTC to make sure that we had enough, but I would always ask the owner first, and it was never more than say a page or two.

If my employees were doing that now, I would know it, as I have a very small office, and I am the one that buys and keeps track of the supplies. I do not see how that is fair for someone to take advantage of their employer in that fashion. Just to be able to accept a $65.00 edoc closing. As that is the only way you will make any money accepting that amount.

So Loretta, I am an employer, and I would fire my employee on the spot, no exceptions should they not ask me first, and they did not replinsh the paper stock that they used.

Reply by SReis on 12/4/07 2:27pm
Msg #224234

I agree Phillip/Tx but that has nothing to do w/orig post

Let me 1st just say that I am self-emp & thus provide for all my own supplies. I also agree that if someone is improperly using employer's supplies they should be terminated because it is tantamount to theft. What I had a problem with was the attack being made on the ss in question. I agree that they should not be, for lack of a better term, "aiding & abetting" paper/ink theft but on the other hand it is not really their reponsbility to police their notaries on this issue. I def think that if they were aware of the situation they should express their disapproval and terminate services, if warranted, but beyond that I don't think there is much else to do.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 12/4/07 2:41pm
Msg #224235

SReis, I agree with you, it is not the SS responsibility

to police their notaries, but if they find out that is happening, they should stress that it is not ethical.

That is all the point I was trying to make. If you are open and upfront with your employer, and they say, oh no it is fine, that is one thing, but if you are using the employers supplies without their knowledge then that is theft.

Reply by Laura Vestanen on 12/4/07 4:34pm
Msg #224262

It's not just paper + toner - it's using expensive equipment

I completely agree with Phillip.

I used to manage a small law firm. Some of the attorneys were part time. Once in awhile the boss or I would catch them using the firm's resources for their private clients (they ones they worked for on the side).

These attorneys always acted like it was no big deal. The boss and I disagreed emphatically.

It's not simply a matter of paper and toner.
It's having access to a $8K copier.
It's having access to a $15K/yr law library.
It's using a $600/month Lexis Nexus account.
It's enjoying the convenience of a costly T1 internet access setup.

The owner wasn't stingy. He was simply a small business owner who didn't want his expensive assets used to help his competitors.

He let any employee use the copier at 2c a sheet if the purpose was personal. Several of us used it for our volunteer projects.

I miss that $8K copier.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 12/4/07 4:42pm
Msg #224264

Re: It's not just paper + toner - it's using expensive equipment

You might be interested Laura that when I was an engineer for a major multi-national engineering & construction company they started hiring a people to make copies for the staff. I remember questioning the practice since my significant other at the time was a cost/scheduling engineering manager. I was surprised to find out that the company was saving considerable money by restricting unautorized use of the printers and copiers: enough to pay for the additional employees and still show a substantial savings in materials.

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 12/4/07 9:28pm
Msg #224337

Re: It's not just paper + toner - it's using expensive equipment

I'd sure like to be able to do this business and get e-doc prices and not have to buy a printer, a computer, only have to pay for the cheapest land line internet service, never have to buy paper or toner or a fax machine or a copier. All I'd need was a cell phone and a stamp (I'd even be able to pinch my employers pens!). Wow, maybe $85 for an e-doc signing would be profitable under those circumstances. And I forgot also getting my regular paycheck while I wait and then print the docs. How do you get a gig like this?? It's a win situation for the NSA, the cheap SS; everyone but the regular employer who's also paying the insurance, the disability, maybe even the pension plan and paying you to take and make calls, do fax backs, print docs, etc. It is as unfair to them as it is to those of us who are trying to make a success in this business all the while paying all of those expenses ourselves.

I can't imagine any employer KNOWINGLY hire a part time employee (who charges extra for e-docs) and uses all their full time employers equipment and supplies. They are knowingly encouraging FRAUD and are even more despicable than the cheating NSA! Talk about theft by conversion.

I've just had an insight: This may be what has driven our fees down the most -- "business" people with NO business expenses.

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/5/07 1:48am
Msg #224359

Re: It's not just paper + toner - it's using expensive equip

"(I'd even be able to pinch my employers pens!)"

On first glance my eye reversed the "s" and the "!" in the last word. Made the sentence much more interesting.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 12/4/07 3:25pm
Msg #224244

Re: I am shocked by this reponse...

I think the problem is with his original post, in which he said something along the lines that notaries who did this were the best to work with (and I'm quoting from memory here, so I may not have it exactly right). His message suggested that he condones this type of behavior. It's clearly theft, and I don't believe for a minute that any employer would have no problem with an employee running off 200 pages or so for something that has nothing to do with their job.

You're correct that it's beyond his role to figure out where the ink and paper come from, but if someone says he KNOWS what they're doing and thinks it's fine (and coincidentally enables him to keep his own fees down), what does that say about integrity?

Reply by Express Notary Service, Inc. on 12/4/07 3:59pm
Msg #224253

Re: I am shocked by this reponse...

Ouch ...been out for a bit.. just catching up. How am I to know if their boss' know they print at work..or if they have a boss for that matter. Not too many notaries saying"ya I can do it for supercheap cause I steal from my boss! You want to hire me now?"They just say "ya, I have a laser printer at home / work. "

I dont ask if their name is on the copier lease.

I was also just responding to another member's grief about these "work printers"...anyhow...have at me again.

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 12/4/07 4:08pm
Msg #224256

Re: I am shocked by this reponse...

Sorry, gotta jump in here... You said
**Most of the employers were well aware their employees were using their printers, emails etc.**
Then you said
**How am I to know if their boss' know they print at work..."

Make up your mind.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 12/4/07 4:11pm
Msg #224258

I Realize...

...many times what we say on this board can jump out to bite you later on & I'm even willing to give the benefit of the doubt in your situation. What we've not heard from you yet is whether you personally believe someone who does this is 100% wrong & what you'd do about it if you KNEW it was going on. Would you cut them off from your database? Would you continue to use them knowing they were essentially committing a crime? All you've told us so far other than referring to a small percentage as "thiefs", is that they are the "best". I get the distinct feeling you'd be willing to just give them a "wink & a nod" to what they're doing. Tell me I'm wrong.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 12/4/07 7:03pm
Msg #224308

Re: I am shocked by this reponse...

<<Ouch ...been out for a bit.. just catching up. How am I to know if their boss' know they print at work..or if they have a boss for that matter. >>

I dunno - maybe because you said it?

If you want, I'll go back and get the exact quote where you said that most of the bosses knew what they were doing and were OK with it - but it's actually amusing to watch you backpedal as fast as you are right now. Are you breaking a sweat yet?

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 12/4/07 4:10pm
Msg #224257

Re: I am shocked by this reponse...

I don't think he's being attacked for the notaries' behaviour, but for his attitude towards it. JMO

Reply by Express Notary Service, Inc. on 12/4/07 4:24pm
Msg #224261

Re: I am shocked by this reponse...

I really didn't think it needed to be expressly stated, however, I would immediately fire anyone using our printer or any other materials for outside jobs. I think every employer should do the same. We would not use someone who we KNOW are stealing from their boss. If they would do that, they would/could be misguided in their performance of the closings. I also think most employers are aware, especially in real estate, as it can be viewed as a benefit to the employee, as opposed to a raise, and helps them keep quality people/employees happy.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 12/4/07 4:47pm
Msg #224268

Re: I am shocked by this reponse...

Oh No, that response is totally way off. I have a title business and if my abstractor is printing out her docs for a signing she has when she leaves here, that does nothing for my business. I have been in this business for 12 years, working with attorneys and brokers, how can this keep quality employees happy. Please, someone do me a favor and delete this who thread, I am going to throw up.

Reply by Linda Spanski on 12/4/07 4:49pm
Msg #224269

Let's see: you'd fire -no, hire

Not sure I see where you're coming from. You'd fire an employee who steals from you, but notaries who -you admit you knew- stole from their employers were "the best." And to address your last sentence here, it's the "quality employees" who take advantage of the "benefit" of using their company's costly printer, toner, time, etc. Really?

Reply by Loretta Reed on 12/4/07 4:51pm
Msg #224270

Re: Let's see: you'd fire -no, hire

I was so fried when I wrote that last post that I put an extra word before I stopped typing.

Reply by Mamie on 12/4/07 5:16pm
Msg #224274

Re: Let's see: you'd fire -no, hire

I think the bottom line here is integrity. If you are stealing from your employer and you think it is okay, what else will you be doing to keep your own business going. Dishonest here, dishonest there. Where does it stop and isn't one if the roles of the notary to keep it all honest and above board.

Reply by Express Notary Service, Inc. on 12/4/07 5:35pm
Msg #224284

Dennis Broadbrooks and the likes...

"So you're saying you knowingly hired SA's who were cheating their employers by stealing time & resources in order to complete their work for you? You KNEW they were doing that & had (or have) no problem with it whatsoever?"

No Dennis Im not saying that...but if you'd like to assume it, post it, and fire up everyone else feel free.

And everyone else who assumed the worst and misinterpreted my frankness....We have been in business for years and have a great reputation...even per your peers comments here at Notary Rotary...but hey this is your forum not mine...so ignore their ratings and reviews... and bash me some more!

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 12/4/07 5:37pm
Msg #224287

It's Broadbooks (without the extra "r)...

...for your future reference in making sure I don't end up in your database.

Reply by CTS10866 on 12/4/07 11:34pm
Msg #224352

Re: Dennis Broadbrooks and the likes (I guess I am a likes)

I apologize. It is not my intention to "bash" you, only to discuss and ask for clarification as to the statements you introduced into the forum. Everyone, including you, has the right to opine, defend, support and/or deny a stated position. One can also, at any time, change one's mind. Maybe the problem lies in the unfortunate selection of words and phrases you chose to describe what you have written. It is hard to imagine that someone is assuming something when one says they are SURE an event took place, then uses the comparative MOST. There may also have been a less controverial way to say what you have said, but since it is posted under your account, we can only work with what we have, which is what you made known to the forum and how you made it known... Please don't feel as if this is not your forum. Each member is an equal in the community. Because you have spoken as an individual it does not mean that the reputation of your organization is trashed. Life changes every day, this too shall pass. Don't feel as if you can not be frank, or yourself, in this environment (just be a tiny bit more careful in posting because there may be ramnifications that negatively impact you on a whole other level that never occured to you). Anyone can be misunderstood at any time, and everyone at some point will disagree with something. I remember you stating in a previous post that you were new here. It is nice to meet you. Welcome to the forum. Regards, Carolyn.

Reply by LisaWI on 12/4/07 5:53pm
Msg #224289

Re: Let's see: you'd fire -no, hire

When I first got into this biz, I worked for a real estate office and was told I could print packagaes for loan signings, but.............she was going to charge me the $25 that I would be getting paid to print the docs. She would of fired me in a heartbeat if I would of stole from her.

Reply by CTS10866 on 12/4/07 11:07pm
Msg #224349

Re: I am shocked by this reponse...

I agree with you... it's the demeanor that is unsettling. I've found this post to be the most fascinating distraction I've had in a long time. I keep checking back just to see what everyone has to say next (smile). I love this forum...