Posted by sue_pa on 12/26/07 4:19pm
Msg #227687

hispanic names

maybe it's just me but Consuela Rodriguez is not the same person as Consuela Lopez. I personally don't give a flying hoot about respect for your mother's name. You are in this country and you are signing legal documents. Pick a name, get your license in that name and conduct your legal business in that name. Also, apparently I am the 'only one' who has ever fussed about this situation.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 12/26/07 4:35pm
Msg #227690

I had the same situation a couple of years ago. ID in mother's name, docs in married name. Sorry, I cannot take Costco membership card as ID in married name. They said they signed before with no problem.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 12/26/07 4:36pm
Msg #227691

No you are not the only one... if the ID and the docs do not match, even if the picture does... it is not valid ID in my opinion! I am with you... choose a name and go by it... or go back where it does not matter that you change your name more than your underware!

Reply by MikeC/NY on 12/26/07 5:06pm
Msg #227699

Tough crowd....

<< choose a name and go by it... or go back where it does not matter that you change your name more than your underware!>>

It's a cultural difference, and they need to understand that what's acceptable in their home country (due to either law or custom) is not necessarily acceptable here. I think that can be accomplished without telling them to go back where they came from if they don't like it...

BTW - there's software, there's hardware, there's ovenware, there's toleware, and there's a host of other "wares"... but the stuff you put on under your clothing is "underwear"

Reply by LKT/CA on 12/26/07 8:26pm
Msg #227717

What's "toleware" ? n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 12/26/07 9:25pm
Msg #227720

Re: What's "toleware" ?

It's laquered metalware
Have you seen those PA Dutch watering cans? They are an example of what toleware would look like.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 12/26/07 11:30pm
Msg #227731

Re: What's "toleware" ?

Thank you, Sylvia - I guess it's become a lost art.

Either that, or I'm older than I thought I was...

Reply by Ernest__CT on 12/26/07 11:32pm
Msg #227732

Not to mention "vaporware". n/m

Reply by Phillip/TX on 12/27/07 1:59pm
Msg #227779

Thanks for the correction MikeC n/m

Reply by Therese on 12/27/07 2:51am
Msg #227745

This might help to understand or confuse you even more

In the Hispanic Culture, lets take Mexico for example.
It is very common to take both parents surnames.
ie. Jose Juan Cardenas Lopez
Lopez being the Mothers Name
Cardenas being the Fathers Name
Jose would be the Middle as we call our here in the US
Juan the name he would be called by.
ID for Mexico and Passports, Matricula etc., always have all 4 names.
Here's the confusion. He moves to the US. Goes lets say to DMV to get an ID
Juan wants to have his ID reflect American ways First name first and Fathers surname last
DMV says sorry no can do you must have as it states on your Passport or other supporting documents. You can have less but you cannot change order. So please choose what you want. So he chooses Juan Cardenas for his DMV ID. Now his passport still says the above.
Used the PP as ID to purchase Home and LO draws up docs as Juan J Lopez.
This is just one example I have heard many versions of such issues within my own family.
Its very hard when all entities are not uniform an instruction. Trickle down effects causes soo many problems. It sure would be nice in the Real World if the LO would take vestings as on ID.
I have made it a habit to always confirm with client their names on docs compared to the ID they plan to present to me at signing. I do this with my appointment confirmation phone call.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/28/07 2:25am
Msg #227931

Re: This might help to understand or confuse you even more

Nice summation of the problem. I think a little awareness of the differences can go a long way to prevent potential problems. I've also run into a number of situations where people were trying to do the right thing but were given bad advice by someone at the DMV or by their realtor or LO. I would accept (and have done so) an ID of an hispanic person if, for example, on the ID there was another name after what was shown as the "last name" on the documents. (Eg. "Jose Antonio Lopez Garcia" on ID, and docs said "Jose A. Lopez".)

I'm not saying that we don't use good notarial practices or that we don't follow our states' laws. However, we deal with the public at large and a little understanding and/or awareness of cultural differences can go a long way to helping people deal with the difficulty of adapting. Someone with an intolerant attitude completely changed my paternal grandfather's last name when he came here because he didn't know how to spell it. I don't feel a person should have to give up their identity to become an American.

Reply by docs1954CA on 12/26/07 4:41pm
Msg #227692

Re: hispanic names-long story, long

No, you're not the only one to make a fuss.I had a closing one night with 2 hispanic borrowers. The husbands name on his license showed the usual 3 names( first, middle and last). However the wifes ID only showed first and last. The docs were another issue.The wifes name on the docs showed her last name the same as the husbands,which wasn't the same on her ID. She claimed that it was ok, the last Notary didn't have a problem with it.The husband didn't speak any english, so the closing was off anyways. I called the LO to advise her of the situation. I was told to just have them sign as their rate was about to expire.She told me she was a Notary also and it was ok. I told her if she was a Notary then she should know the laws. ( In California you must be able to communicate with the signer directly).the sining was adjourned after a heated exchange with her telling me that the docs would be corrected, and I would have to return the next night and backdate so it could close on time.

Don't ya just love people that work on a commission basis?

Reply by Merry_CA on 12/26/07 5:02pm
Msg #227698

Re: hispanic names-long story, long

CA is very clear on how to ID a signer and that we can not notarize a signature for someone that we cannot communicate with. A LO with their salt would have made sure that the borrowers had proper ID and that a notary with appropriate language skills was hired. Bad LO! .... not a language issue at all.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 12/26/07 11:01pm
Msg #227726

Very simple: ID matches doc or no notarization. Period. n/m

Reply by CJ on 12/27/07 12:46am
Msg #227737

Re: Very simple: ID matches doc or no notarization. Period.

I had a grant deed that changed the wife's name into her new married name, and all the docs were this new name. The docs were like, "Maria L. Gonzalez" and the ID was Maria Lopez. Of course they TOLD me that the L stood for Lopez, but this stupid thing is that someone drew up the docs that way when they were creating the GD. Why didn't they just say, "Fax us your DL and we will put that name on the Docs".???

I'm with you: when in Rome, do as the Romans, or go back. One borrower said, "I don't know why you Americans are always so scared of the law and insist on doing everything by the book". So I guess corruption is the way of life for them.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 12/27/07 12:11pm
Msg #227766

Blame the state legislatures

My state, and a few other states where I looked at the name laws, have lots of laws that say your name should be on your birth certificate, your name should be on your driver's license, etc., but nowhere do they ever define what a name consists of. The idea that a person has a given name, which comes first, and a single family name, which comes last, and (whenever possible) is the same as the father's family name, is a custom adopted from the English, and it wasn't always followed there. Many people with other naming customs were living in the various states when those states entered the United States, including Native Americans, Mexicans, Japanese, and Chinese. Most states have no laws saying these people have to change their naming conventions, they just have state agencies, such as a bureau of vital statistics or a department of motor vehicles that make unwarrented assumptions that every family is just like the families of the officials running the departments.

Furthermore, foreigners are permitted to visit the United States, conduct business here, and have documents notarized, even if they have no desire to live here. Thus, notaries public must be prepared to deal with every naming custom on the planet.

As for my ancestors, they were too busy trying to avoid starvation in a potato famine to worry about keeping records about names.

Reply by sue_pa on 12/27/07 1:48pm
Msg #227775

disagree

It doesn't matter to me 'how' the legislators permit you to 'name' yourself. Every intelligent adult (no distinguishing here at all between born here or immigrated as both are guilty) should know what their name is (or choose a name that can be supported by documentation) and should use that name consistently for legal purposes.

Years ago I got 'in trouble' with a title company (and Fox Signing for that matter) because I wouldn't notarize a Deed. Seems the young man liked his mother's boyfriend tremendously and decided to use that guy's last name when he bought his house. However, since that wasn't his last name (any way, shape or form) he of course had no id. Me, being the uncooperative notary, refused to transfer real estate from one person to another when the grantor had ZERO identification because his was a made up name. Of course this all came about because the lender wanted his 'real' name on the loan docs and they wanted those to match the deed.


... Thus, notaries public must be prepared to deal with every naming custom on the planet...
Not this notary. They can come up with id in the name they are signing or they can find someone else (and they will) to do it. My job is not to make it work - making it work is their responsibility.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 12/27/07 2:00pm
Msg #227780

I agree with you Sue_PA n/m

Reply by Gerry_VT on 12/27/07 2:06pm
Msg #227782

Re: disagree

Notaries should insist on satisfactory evidence that the person before them is the person named in the instrument being notarized. So long as there is satisfactory evidence, the notary should not attempt to impose the naming conventions of Americans of English ancestry upon the person before them, unless a state law forces them to do so. For example, if my Chinese college room-mate turns up and wants me to notarize his signature written in Chinese characters, with the family name first, and I pull out a note he wrote me 30 years ago and the signatures match, I'm obliged to notarize it. I would feel free to write his name in the certificate either in Chinese characters or the Roman alphabet, since I have personal knowledge of how is name is transliterated from Chinese to the Roman alphabet.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 12/27/07 2:14pm
Msg #227785

Re: disagree

Gerry, that would fall under the personally known to you... so not the same idea!

Reply by sue_pa on 12/27/07 2:18pm
Msg #227787

Re: disagree

...Notaries should insist on satisfactory evidence that the person before them is the person named in the instrument being notarized. So long as there is satisfactory evidence, the notary should not attempt to impose the naming conventions of Americans of English ancestry upon the person before them...

seems that's what I said in my original post. I could care less what anyone's ancestors did - I want ID in the name they are signing. I don't "attempt to impose" anything on anyone - they are the ones who are 'imposing' when they ask us to notarize names they don't have id for.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 12/27/07 5:27pm
Msg #227832

As usual, I'm with sue_pa. ID must match document, ...

... unless I personally know the signer.

I've notarized signature written Greek, Chineese, and other languages' (non-Roman) characters. _In all cases,_ the ID has matched the signature.

The nationality of the signer does not matter. "Satisfactory evidence" according to _my_ state law does matter.