Posted by Ndwa on 2/16/07 4:31pm
Msg #176092

A trend to watch for

Beside Coast2Coast Notaries which I have mention before regarding payment, I just found 2 more companies in my book where checks are received 30-45 days from the date they were printed. Just received one today for a signing 11/19/06, check dated 12/28/06. I never had to call these companies b/c I know they will eventually pay me. It's Paypal from here on or no pal.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/16/07 4:36pm
Msg #176094

Re: A trend to watch for - my bank has a limit on

age of checks.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/16/07 4:58pm
Msg #176099

Re: A trend to watch for - my bank has a limit on

According to the UCC, a bank is not obligated to pay a customer's check that is more than six months old, with the exception of a certified check. Anything under 6 months old has to be paid.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/16/07 6:11pm
Msg #176107

Re: A trend to watch for - my bank has a limit on

Mike, It doesn't matter what a notary forum says...or the UCC...my credit union says NO.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/16/07 6:23pm
Msg #176108

Re: A trend to watch for - my bank has a limit --90 days n/m

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/16/07 6:51pm
Msg #176113

Re: A trend to watch for - my bank has a limit on

Federal law (UCC) says 6 months. A credit union is not a bank, so they may not have to comply with UCC.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/16/07 7:00pm
Msg #176115

Re: A trend to watch for - my bank has a limit on

That's what I figured. They have a different set of rules.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 2/17/07 1:09am
Msg #176166

UCC only covers checks issued by the Federal Government

90 days is the norm for personal and business checks ....

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 2/17/07 11:01am
Msg #176176

Section 3-304

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/3/article3.htm#s3-302

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/17/07 3:06pm
Msg #176192

Re: Section 3-304

The obligation of a bank to honor a check is in Article 4 - and it's not just government checks, it's any check drawn on a bank:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/4/article4.htm#s4-404

That doesn't mean another bank has to accept it for deposit (they can always refuse to accept a check), but the bank it's drawn on has to honor it for up to 6 months.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 2/17/07 10:45pm
Msg #176219

Re: Section 3-304

Yes, that's correct. Your post did not compute with me until after I posted before. I am getting old I guess.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/18/07 2:42pm
Msg #176254

Re: Section 3-304

No problem - I'm glad you made me go doublecheck my own memory banks.

Reply by Teddog/CO on 2/16/07 5:01pm
Msg #176100

Ndwa

I agree with you. PayPal will be starting with me now. Some people are letting these invoices go to long. Sooo, as you say it's PayPal time, especially for companies that you have never worked for before.

Reply by thnotary_NY on 2/16/07 6:10pm
Msg #176106

Re: Ndwa

Just how does this PayPal thing work.?

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/16/07 6:37pm
Msg #176110

I'm not ND but PayPal is real easy, anyon with a credit card

can pay you or if they have a PayPal account its easier. Check out www.PayPal.com and if you sign up with them give them my e-mail address. They do take a charge for each transaction but it's no worse than credit card vendors and it is certainly cheaper than having to collect.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/16/07 8:14pm
Msg #176126

We see this on the board all the time

But I don't recall seeing a single post where somebody got a company to actually agree to pay them via payal prior to the signing.

The only trend I see coming is a bunch of signing agents getting companies never to use them again by requiring paypal in advance. And if that's the ultimate goal, don't deprive yourself of the satisfaction of firing the companies yourself instead of going through this charade.

Reply by cassiewi on 2/16/07 8:24pm
Msg #176128

No one has ever paid me by paypal in advance

but last end of month, I had someone offer to cut my check and UPS it to me the next day. This was after I told them I couldn't do the signing because of their rep. Sure enough I got the check on that Monday.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/16/07 9:21pm
Msg #176136

I actually got paid via PayPal once...

by a desperate loan officer who found a cheap notary who walked on him. He wanted to make sure that the notarization happened and offered to pay via credit card or PayPal: I took it. I have to agree with you there is little satisfaction in just eroding your business until you have none left. It is so much more satisfying to just tell them to f*** off.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/16/07 10:43pm
Msg #176156

Re: We see this on the board all the time

I agree - if you're at the point where you're requiring someone to pay you in advance, the business relationship is totally dysfunctional.

Why bother doing this? Anyone you can't trust to pay you is not someone you should be doing business with... Plus, if they're sleazy enough to require payment in advance, what makes you think they won't do a chargeback and screw you out of the money anyway?

Reply by James H. Lissemore on 2/17/07 6:37pm
Msg #176206

Re: We see this on the board all the time

Spent 30 years in graphic arts. Cash With order is a good way to do business with strangers.Pay Pal works fine, especially at EOM.

Reply by sue_pa on 2/17/07 10:18am
Msg #176174

Re: We see this on the board all the time

a few months ago I had a huge chuckle as there were several on this board who were going to DEMAND payment up front from new companies - can't remember if they wanted a check or paypal. I believe they were going to 'report' back. Haven't heard a word from them. Wonder why?

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/17/07 11:44am
Msg #176178

It's not a practical business model Sue. In todays market

one needs to do what ever they can to help the business along and for years now extending credit is a useful way to garnish some loyalty. Unfortunately there is a temendous amount of abuse by the Signing Services and they are using notaries to support their business. You figure that a reasonable rate of return on money these days is 6%, so if a Signing Service had a large number of signings extending payment date from 30 days out to 45 days is a substantial amount of money that they are borrowing from their notaries at no charge. I certainly don't recommend payment up front and never have but I do require reasonable payment and I've noticed my accounts receivables from notary work slipping and I am quickly terminating those Signing Services. I personally have the luxury of not really needing the notary work so I can cut anyone I don't wish to work with. My useage of PayPal in notary work is only incidental since I have a substantial on-line business manufacturing and distributing leather accessoriess most of which are sold on-line and via eBay; PayPal is very convenient.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/17/07 12:16pm
Msg #176181

Re: It's not a practical business model Sue. In todays marke

"Unfortunately there is a temendous amount of abuse by the Signing Services and they are using notaries to support their business."

I would disagree with this. The majority of posts we see on this board regarding non payment are about the same handful of companies. If you know the top 5 companies to avoid, you've greatly reduced your chances of not getting paid for your work.

In my 4 years as a notary I've had exactly ONE company outright stiff me and disappear. I've had a few more who I had to harass a bit to get paid. But the vast majority of my income has been paid to me in a timely manner with no effort on my part.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/17/07 1:39pm
Msg #176188

Everyones business model is different. I prefer to consider

that a 30 day net is the norm in most business and that every day after the 30 that I don't get paid I am losing money and the user is gaining from the use of my money for free. It used to be that businesses played with check float to gain an extra 3 or 4 days of interest (Title companies still do that is why they have rules for when the funding actually takes place). Electronic transfers have cut the use of float drastically. Now I may have a more restrictive view of money than many here but I know that in other businesses many accounts are -2% COD 10 days net, 2% 30 days is not unusual. I've compensated by including the additional float in the way I charge for my notary services. In my own businesses I always take advantages of discounts because its more money in my pocket but a lot of people don't look at it that way. If you save enough pennies they eventually become dollars.

I can't remember the movie but a while back there was one where a couple of kids hacked a bank computer and tapped into the bank's software for rounding up or down mills (thousandths of a dollar as opposed to cents). They modified the rounding algorythm and took the difference, about a mill per transaction and had it diverted to their own account. The banks did not realize this was happening but after millions of individual transactions daily there was substantial money accrued to the kids. I thought it was an excellent lesson.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/17/07 1:57pm
Msg #176189

PC LOAD LETTER comes from what movie? Office Space

*I can't remember the movie but a while back there was one where a couple of kids hacked a bank...* It was Office Space. Great movie.


Not long ago I talked to a notary and made mention that I thought that holding notary funds by certain companies which do large volume --such as Stewart and Title Stream, for instance--could be a means of simply keeping their cash flow accounts high. Same thing you are saying, Charles.

If they were doing 1,000 (just a round number) schedulings at an avg. of $100 each, that's $100,000 they have on their books earning interest on for 30-60-90 days, plus, the second month, holding anothner $100,000 in limbo...plus the third month of holding that money in limbo, so that's $300,000 they are able to hold in their accounts simply by not paying the notaries on time.

So, with that $300,000 they are able to do a lot of things without touching other high earning assets.

The notary payments are their cash flow.

It will not ever change but it is very sick if you think about the fact that this is a thought out concious decision. Big guys stealing the use of money from MANY little guys. It is disgusting.

By the way...this is all theoretical on my part. I am sure that Title Stream nor Stewart has ever considered this as an option. They just have disorganized bookkeepers.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/17/07 1:59pm
Msg #176190

Re: PC LOAD LETTER Meant conscious not concious n/m

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/17/07 9:01pm
Msg #176216

Thanks Brenda, I coldn't remember. Title companies do

actually consider the float specifically in fact since they have large amounts of cash on hand some have special accounts similar to short term CDs. If you notice one of the documents in the closing agents files usually states that unless there are instructions to the contrary from the closing agent or customer the Title/Escrow company has the option to fund on a day of their choosing or they have standard days they fund and that is to take this float and interest rates into consideration. When you think of it a few points is actually big bucks if you are closing several deals a day.

Reply by PAW on 2/18/07 5:34am
Msg #176226

Re: Thanks Brenda, I coldn't remember. Title companies do

I think this is very dependent on whether the state is an escrow funding state or a table funding state. Besides that, title companies (including escrow and settlement companies) don't fund, lenders fund, title companies disburse the funds. In table funding states, typically funds are disbursed at closing, while things are being passed around the table, thus the name. When all is signed and sealed, the funds are disbursed. Every month with the purchase deals I work on, at the beginning of the closing, we go through the "funding docs" that must be sent to the lender for funding approval. By the time we are finished the closing, hopefully, the lender has funded the loan and the disbursement of the funds can be completed. However, in dry closing, typical in escrow states, disbursement is predicated on more than just having all the table work completed. Things like the recording of deeds may need to be accomplished prior to actual disbursement, keeping the funds as released from the lender in an escrow account.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/18/07 8:02am
Msg #176229

What I am addressing in my post

is not about what's on the settlement statment to be funded or whethere the state is wet, dry, or slightly damp to the touch.

I am addressing companies who are paying notaries or notary signing services out of their own line item on the Hud or Settlement Statement such as the escrow fee. As soon as these companies are funded there is NO reason for them not to send a check on to the notary within ten days.

Had lunch with an RM LO the other day. This one was amazed to find out that Title Stream do not pay notaries until 45-90 days or more has passed. By their own verbally stated policy to me they pay approximately six weeks after funding. My experience is that is if you are lucky. TS is one of those companies I would rather pass on now than to take because I don't like their pay schedule.

The funds for the signing (according to the RM LO) is funded after the RTC expires and notary fees should be paid right away. This is the case with other title companies who also do not put the notary service on the HUD. They just pay the notary immediately rather than fritzing around with six weeks or more.

Notaries should pay attention to who the LOs are they do a lot of work for. Once they build a relationship with them the LOs will go to bat for them. I know one wild and crazy LO who will stomp a mudhole in the escrow officer's ear when her notaries aren't paid. She wants her good ones to keep working for her. This is not me who works for her, LOL...not Title Stream...another Texas title company...probably fee office branch...in the Metroplex.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/18/07 3:44pm
Msg #176260

Table funding states

Are there any table funding states other than NY? I got the impression during a title closing class that NY is unique in the way it does closings, but I have no way of knowing whether that's true.

I'm not sure an SA can - or would WANT to - handle purchases here unless also trained as a title closer (or the property is out of state and the transaction is escrow funded). It's a different skill set; it's more work, and a lot more exposure as far as liability is concerned.

I've done only one purchase, which was an out-of-state property - not much different for a loan signing, other than that the buyer and seller were both present and I had to pick up a huge check from the buyer to go back to title. I've been trained as a title closer, but it's a tough business to crack, especially in the current market - would love to have that as another income stream, but I'm not sure if it's feasible.

Reply by PAW on 2/18/07 8:43pm
Msg #176282

Re: Table funding states

Here's a map that gives you a list of "table funding" or "lien theory" states: http://title.grabois.com/

There are 21 "lien theory" states, including New York.

I invite you, and all other readers to read the following article: "What Is The Difference Between a Title Theory and a Lien Theory State?" which can be found at http://www.escrowhelp.com/articles/20000317.html

And, to see how different states handle escrow and closings, visit http://www.legalwhiz.com/resources/escrow.shtml

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/19/07 10:22am
Msg #176331

Thanks Paul

As always, you're definitely the go to guy for questions like this.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/17/07 7:54pm
Msg #176211

Re: Everyones business model is different. I prefer to consi

I don't disagree with any of what you said here. My point was that non payment by signing services isn't as big of a problem as it might appear to someone reading this board. I'd be willing to wager the percentage of no pays and slow pays isn't really worse than any other industry. In fact it's probably a lot better than many other industries.

It's just part of being in business. Not everyone pays you as they should. Unless you're a business that gets paid cash on the spot, nobody is immune from dealing with this kind of stuff.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/17/07 9:02pm
Msg #176217

Agreed, everyone has collection accounts, you are right,

it is a part of doing business. Al lwe can do is strive to keep it at a minimum.

Reply by Tricia on 2/18/07 7:54pm
Msg #176280

Re: It's not a practical business model Sue. In todays marke

I have been fortunate and never have had a company run out on me. I have always gotten paid.
That being said, I do look at how long it takes to get the money and if I had to make repeated phone calls to collect. I will not use a company that in my mind is "not worth the hassle" to work for. Even if I had a company that gave me lots of work; if I had to make a phone call for each invoice I would be inclined to limit the amount of work I do for them or stop working for them all together.
I prefer to work for companies that respect me and my work and show that respect by paying me in a professional and timely manner.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/18/07 5:38pm
Msg #176269

Make sure you understand how it works...

PayPal giveth, and PayPal may also taketh away.

When you sign up with PayPal, you have to link to a checking or savings account in order to transfer all those thousands of dollars you'll be receiving from them to you. Buried in the fine print is the fact that they can also transfer money OUT of your linked account...

Here's the scenario - sleazebag SS desperately needs you to do a signing. You hold a gun to their head and demand payment of past due invoices plus the fee for the current job. They pay with credit card via PayPal, and all is rosy - you transfer the funds from PayPal to your linked account, and go about your day - maybe take your significant other out to dinner that evening, or buy a new toy for yourself with the money.

A couple of days later, sleazebag SS challenges the credit card payment . Paypal wants to freeze those funds until the dispute is resolved, but you've already transferred the money from PayPal to your linked account. No problem for PayPal; they'll just take that money out of your linked account and hold it for a month or two while they resolve the dispute. You may ultimately wind up with nothing; worse, if you relied on the payment to pay some bills you may be bouncing checks all over town...

Personally I think PayPal is great if you're selling stuff on eBay, but it's a really bad idea for a professional to offer as an alternative payment method - and especially so with companies you've had difficulty collecting from in the past.

Your mileage may vary - just be aware of the possible bumps in the road...

Reply by Les_CO on 2/16/07 7:09pm
Msg #176116

Re: A trend to watch for n/m