Posted by TK/CO on 2/15/07 11:59am
Msg #175796

Backdating documents

This came up in TWO deals in two days both to which I refused to do to the notarizations. In communicating with the SS and the LO in one of these deals they both ASSUMED I would do it! Why would anyone ASSUME you would do something illegal with this paper trail????? The second sheepishly asked how I felt about backdating - after explaining that he knew as well as I that it was illegal, he said OK, just attach the loose certificate with the correct date for the second signer. And now ONE of these parties is blaming ME for the docs being rejected which is WHY I DON'T BACKDATE!!! Now if there is a lawsuit, I can't be blamed for following the law. Any suggestions to document this series of events???????????

Reply by MelissaCT on 2/15/07 12:15pm
Msg #175801

Not knowing the whole story, it's difficult to provide advice. If you attached a loose certificate for a second signer that was notarized & dated for the day the notarization took place, where is the issue?

Reply by TK/CO on 2/15/07 12:21pm
Msg #175807

Lender is not accepting the docs because they are not uniform. LO told the borrower 2 to backdate their docs, and that my notarizations were ok for same day. But now, LO is begging me to change them to fund because they are not being accepted, but I can't.

Reply by LawrenceOK on 2/15/07 12:33pm
Msg #175812

Re: Backdating documents...Let them blame all they want

From what I understand from you post you did what you were supposed to do.

Reply by TK/CO on 2/15/07 12:42pm
Msg #175818

Re: Backdating documents...Let them blame all they want

Thank you!!!! I just can't get over why they would assume I would do something illegal. I suggested he have the Borrower change my certificate and he said he didn't want to go committing fraud, yet he expects me to!!!!!

Reply by LawrenceOK on 2/15/07 12:59pm
Msg #175831

Re: Backdating documents...Let them blame all they want

Never Ever allow anyone other then yourself to make changes to your cetificates.

Reply by VickiWA on 2/15/07 2:16pm
Msg #175847

Lawerence,

How do I protect myself from someone making changes to my cerificates after they leave my posession? A loan had to be redrawn when there was white out on one of my certificates. I have NEVER used white out on any certificate or any document, NOT EVER. They faxed me a copy and sure enough there was white out that someone else had put on there. The part under my signature where it says 'Notary Public in and for the State of Washington, residing at... is where the white out was. I had no way to prove that I didn't do it. How do I know the certificates that I completed last Sun didn't get changed after they left my possession? How do we protect ourselves?

Reply by TK/CO on 2/15/07 2:21pm
Msg #175850

Re: Lawerence,

I apologize as I was being a bit sarcastic...but like Vicki said, we can't control what happens to our certificates when the docs are out of our possession. I would not renotarize a change in MY certificate.

Reply by TK/CO on 2/15/07 2:24pm
Msg #175852

Re: Backdating documents...Let them blame all they want

True and I responded to Vicki that I was being sarcastic, but she raised a good point about how to protect ourselves after the docs are out of our possession - I guess we can only rely on our journals and copious notes.

Reply by sn/oh on 2/15/07 4:59pm
Msg #175883

Vicki's Question

"How do I protect myself from someone making changes to my cerificates after they leave my posession?"

Is there no answer to Vicki's question as to how you protect yourself against someone changing your certificate thereby causing a loan not to fund? Perhaps having the borrower sign the journal after notary inscribes in the "additional info" area "No Mistakes to Certificate made.

Reply by VickiWA on 2/15/07 7:22pm
Msg #175906

Good idea, thanks n/m

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/15/07 7:53pm
Msg #175912

There is no answer

so don't concern yourself worrying about it. Once the docs leave your possession there isn't a damn thing you can do about somebody tampering with the notarizations.

Reply by VickiWA on 2/15/07 1:06pm
Msg #175833

On Sunday a LO called me to meet with him and borrowers to complete notarized docs only. On Saturday the LO had met with the borrowers at a Kinkos to get docs notarized but the notary had left for the day. All docs except notarized docs were signed on Sat. Now the LO, borrowers and I are meeting to complete the notarized docs and the LO says "Oh I talked with my legal department on the way here and he said that you will have to date the docs for yesterday in order to fund on Thurs and keep the lock" I, of course, say " I have to use todays date. " LO says a few more polite things and I respond with "It would be illegal for me to backdate my notarizations." It got more aukward as the conversation went and in front of the borrowers. I did the right thing and hopefully I will get paid He acted like he didn't know it was illegal and said the attorney in his legal department said it was ok and he is a notary too.

Reply by LawrenceOK on 2/15/07 1:13pm
Msg #175836

Re: Backdating documents..Vicki

I bet you if everyone looked in their state notary rules it would say that you are to date your certificates for the date the persons appeared in front of you.

Reply by Roger_OH on 2/15/07 1:32pm
Msg #175840

When asked to backdate...

I ask them to put their backdating request on their letterhead and fax it to me, so I can run it past my SOS. That seems to stop it.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/15/07 4:54pm
Msg #175882

"I bet you if everyone looked in their state notary rules it would say that you are to date your certificates for the date the persons appeared in front of you."

NY doesn't specifically address that issue for notaries - we don't have a notary manual, just a hodgepodge of laws that we need to know about and are tested on before receiving a commission.

However, NY Penal Law clearly says that anyone who intentionally issues a false certificate (i.e., one containing information known to be false) with intent to deceive or defraud is guilty of a felony, punishable by up to 4 years in prison. Doing that on a deed or a mortgage could be considered second degree forgery - and the bill for that one is up to 7 years. Pretty hefty price tag for a loan signing....

I have had one SS ask me to backdate. My response was "No, that would be a felony in this state." End of discussion.

I'm curious about the penalties other states impose for backdating a notarial certificate - is NY harsh, or do other states generally consider it as serious an infraction as we do (or more so)?

Reply by PAW on 2/15/07 5:06pm
Msg #175885

Am I reading this incorrectly?

§303. Requisites of acknowledgments. An acknowledgment must not be taken by any officer unless he knows or has satisfactory evidence, that the person making it is the person described in and who executed such instrument.”

The thing to be known is the identity of the person making the acknowledgment with the person described in the instrument and the person who executed the same. This knowledge must be possessed by the notary (Gross v. Rowley, 147 App. Div. 529), and a notary must not take an acknowledgment unless the notary knows or has proof that the person making it is the person described in and who executed the instrument (People v. Kempner, 49 App. Div. 121). It is not essential that the person who executed the instrument sign his name in the presence of the notary.

*****
Taking acknowledgments over the telephone is illegal and a notary public is guilty of a misdemeanor in so acting. In the certificate of acknowledgment a notary public declares: “On this ....... day of ............ 20 ......., before me came .............. to me known,” etc. Unless the person purporting to have made the acknowledgment actually and personally appeared before the notary on the day specified, the notary’s certificate that he so came is palpably false and fraudulent. (Matter of Brooklyn Bar Assoc., 225 App. Div. 680.)
*****

(Source: http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lcns/lawbooks/notary.html - about 3/4 of the way through the document.)

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/16/07 10:05am
Msg #175994

That's interesting, because it's not in the stuff I downloaded from the SOS site when I was preparing for the noatry exam, and the URL is different. Section 303 is in there, but not the information that followed. I've printed out a copy and replaced my apparently incomplete copy of the license law.

I stand corrected - NY DOES address it specifically. Thanks for pointing this out for me, Paul.

Reply by PAW on 2/16/07 10:17am
Msg #175998

Section 303 is but the one paragraph. However, the commentary in the next two paragraphs at the site cited, is a further explanation and reference to case law regarding the section. I guess what you downloaded was strictly the pertinent statutes, without explanations.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/16/07 12:59pm
Msg #176031

It's in an addendum to what I had, titled "Definitions and General Terms". Not sure how I missed it, but I have it now.

Reply by LisaWI on 2/15/07 2:15pm
Msg #175846

Re: Backdating documents-Vicki

Vicki,
I just read your post and bursted out laughing. Not what happened to you, that situation always stinks, but the fact that the LO was meeting the borrowers at Kinkos to get the docs notarized, never mind hiring someone professional on a loan signing, and then didnt even check to make sure there was a notary available at Kinkos to do it. I bet that person will do things differently from now on. I can understand saving money, but not securing the signing to follow thru is a lesson hopefully this LO learned.

Reply by VickiWA on 2/15/07 2:27pm
Msg #175854

Don't get me started on this LO....

I did the job because we agreed to a decent fee. I thought the Kinko's thing was funny too. I guess when they arrived the Notary was there but by the time they signed other docs, copied ID etc., the notary was off work. I hesitated accepting the job because the situation seemed unprofessioal. If he had hired a notary to complete the docs on Sat he would have saved a few bucks in the long run.

You are right, Lisa, this was a funny one. Now I hope I get paid :-/

Reply by LisaWI on 2/15/07 2:30pm
Msg #175855

Re: Don't get me started on this LO....

I hope you get paid too. You did your job correctly. Keep us updated.

Reply by Terri_CA on 2/15/07 3:11pm
Msg #175863

Re: Don't get me started on this LO....

Sounds like that wasn't a loan signing but rather a mobile notary call, thus payment would have been required on the spot for the notarizations I performed.

Something to consider in the future perhaps?

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by Ndwa on 2/15/07 2:19pm
Msg #175848

Re: Backdating documents-Vicki

That LO or his legal department didn't know any better that signing on Sat/Sun in fact does not change the recission/funding as RTC would start on Monday either way.

Reply by VickiWA on 2/15/07 2:20pm
Msg #175849

True but legal dept. wanted the RTC to match the cert. n/m

Reply by Ndwa on 2/15/07 2:42pm
Msg #175856

Re: True but legal dept. wanted the RTC to match the cert.

I meant resigning the whole package.