Posted by Kenneth A Edelstein on 2/6/07 7:49pm
Msg #174399

Can the affiant modify a Notarized - apostilled document????

I just received a call from a client. He had written a letter of authorization for a relative to perform some banking transactions in Estonia. I notarized the signature and obtained an apostille for use in Estonia. Now I receive a call that some information - his and his agent's citizen ID numbers - were omitted and are required by the bank in Estonia.
Is it OK for him to add the information to the Notarized and Apostilled document? Or, is it necessary for the entire procedure to be started over? The client wants to do the legal and proper thing - not at all wanting to do anything improper. He did ask if it was OK to add the info. I just am not sure. Perhaps the answer is "legal advise" and I should refer him to an attorney? Has anyone else had this issue?

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/6/07 8:07pm
Msg #174405

Re: Can the affiant modify a Notarized - apostilled document

I'm not a lawyer, but I think the only way to do this properly is to redraw the document, notarize again, and then get another apostille. We have no idea what the client does with or to the document after we notarize it, but I certainly wouldn't suggest to them that it's OK to add stuff after the fact....

Reply by Les_CO on 2/6/07 8:18pm
Msg #174406

As to your first question...I would think not.
I would send the "additional" information to the bank (prehaps in the form of a sworn statement, along with some verification) and see what they say. If they don't accept the additional info., ASK them what they NEED.

Reply by Leon_CO on 2/6/07 9:22pm
Msg #174415

** Is it OK for him to add the information to the Notarized and Apostilled document? **

Just a humble opinion, but it's not for the notary to say what is done to a document after the signature has been notarized. It's not our responsibility to track the document to its final destination and ensure that it hasn't been tampered with. What the client does with the document is literally out of your hands, and out of your control. It's up to the agency (bank in Estonia) who requires the document to say if they'll accept it or not with the alterations. But they might not know themselves if it had been altered.

Were the blanks lined through? If there were blanks that were not lined through, then there's no way of telling if the document was altered after it was notarized. Your client can do whatever he wants with the blanks. If he did indeed line through them, or write N/A, then there will surely be signs of alteration. It's still up to the bank in Estonia to say if they'll accept it or not.

This is off topic, but the interesting thing about your situation is that, this is what electronic notarization is all about. Once a document has been notarized electronically, there will be evidence that it has been tampered with, in any form. For now, it's out of our control what happens to a document after we've notarized the signature.

Way off topic, but it really makes me wonder if electronic notarization will have widespread use in loan signings.

Good luck with whatever happens.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 2/6/07 9:34pm
Msg #174416

I completely agree w/you Leon

A notary can never give advice like that, and yes, the client can do whatever he likes. Unfortunately (for us in situations like this) there is enough respect for the office of notary that these questions do get asked, as tho we were the 'document police'. We're not and your post is spot on.

Great comments.

Reply by ewing2surf on 2/7/07 1:18am
Msg #174462

Re: I completely agree w/you Leon

I agree Leon and TG.

Blame it on the apostille...the fact that an apostille was already obtained does not make the official act more official it just proves the notary actually holds a current commission.

In California we check their ID give the oath, watch them sign and log the event in our journal. What the affiant does with the document after it's notarized it is out of the notary's control.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 2/7/07 9:24am
Msg #174482

Re: eNotarization and Loan Signings

We figure it will grow in the mortgage industry (and on the electronic recording side) because it's faster and - if the right software is in place - more efficient.

But no, eNotarization won't make documents any more secure than paper notarization does now. How could it?

Reply by PAW on 2/7/07 9:58am
Msg #174488

Re: eNotarization and Loan Signings

If the electronic document is protected properly, assuming it is part of e-signature/e-notarization, then ANY change to the electronic form will be detected and the security seal made invalid. The security process for e-signatures involves verification of the signer's domain name. The next step involves answering verified questions unique to the signer. Then the digital signature (not the same as digitized signature like you have in your local Wal-Mart) is stamped to the document file and must be verified with a password. The last step is to lock the document with encryption and a double-hash system. It's the last step that makes the document tamper-proof. Any time the file is opened, the encryption process is repeated creating a new double-hash value. This value is then compared to the value in the digital signature. If there's any difference, the document is considered to have been altered.

GeoTrust has been working on this project for quite some time. Read this article for some interesting insight. http://www.geotrust.com/about/news_events/press/PR_cds_momentum_081506s.pdf

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/7/07 10:34am
Msg #174502

Re: eNotarization and Loan Signings

I'm not sure I'd entirely agree with PAW's technical description; indeed, since e-Notarization is just getting started, I don't think we can say which technical methods will become popular. But I absolutely agree with his bottom line: if even a single character in the document is changed (say a right single quote is changed to a straight apostrophe) when the document security is checked the next time it is viewed on a computer, the viewing program will detect the change and warn the reader that the document has changed. (The process cannot say HOW the document changed, just that there was a change.) When I tried to alter signed Microsoft Word documents as an experiment, Word reported the documents were corrupt and it couldn't even display the document.

The process is very likely to include digital trusted timestamps, which means the end of backdating.