Posted by Jeffrey Sestilio on 2/20/07 2:58pm
Msg #176461

Has anyone ever heard of a notary being sued? n/m

Reply by Larry/Ca on 2/20/07 3:15pm
Msg #176465

I assume you mean for......

a notarial act. I asked if anyone had or even heard of a notary being sued over a notarial act when I was thinking of increasing my E&O insurance. I asked on all the boards and nobody responded that they had. This was awhile back, perhaps someone has since then.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/20/07 3:16pm
Msg #176466

Just for starters Google "notary sued" n/m

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/20/07 3:19pm
Msg #176467

Jeffrey, check this one out, its in your back yard...



http://www.lastwordedits.com/unlawfulnotary.pdf

Reply by Julie/MI on 2/20/07 3:43pm
Msg #176473

None were by the book

I don't have time to read all the examples, but it appears the notaries that got in trouble, intentionally broke the law, or did not have the party sign in front of them nor ask for ID. These are a dime a dozen.

I've been following these "boreds" for 6 years, and not once has anyone every made a claim on their E & O who followed the law when completing notarial acts.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/20/07 4:10pm
Msg #176479

I know that you are suit-proof by virtue of having nothing..

There are other notaries who are not so "fortunate" as to have 0 assets but actually have something to lose. I'm sorry you find these boards "boreds" but your comment is self-evident. You are absolutely right that these were not by the book. However in some of these the notary was not even at fault and yet was still sued. Do you have the funds to defend yourself against a protracted legal battle: I know you don't care because you have nothing for anyone to attach or take. It's great that you never make a mistake but that in and of itself does not prevent you from being sued. Anyone can sue you at anytime. You have taken the only steps that will guarantee you to be suit free and that is to not have any assets. I actually know of a neighbor of mine who was suit proof, he also owned nothing. Then one day late in life his mother died and left him her house which in my area was modest and only worth $820,000. 30 years prior he had lost a lawsuit and the attorney's obtained a judgement. Guess what, this neighbor still has no assets, the attorneys took everything to satisfy the judgement and the interest on the judgement and there is still a balance owed.

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 2/20/07 6:47pm
Msg #176498

Charles you are making a big assumption

when you say that about Julie. Maybe you are unaware, but she has forgotten more about notary work and loan signing than most of us could learn in a lifetime. She has been a great contributor to every board that I've ever been on and her info is right on the money. I actually think that an appology is in order. (you might want to read her profile). And I know her personally, not just from these boards.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/20/07 6:58pm
Msg #176499

No assumption Dorothy, just fact, Julie herself made the

statements in messages 149882 and 149883, check it out for your self!

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/20/07 7:03pm
Msg #176500

Dorothy I'll be waiting for your apology, I said

absolutely nothing concerning her abilities as a notary, I don't know Julie, only what she has said and that she doesn't think much of this board (also from previous messages).

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 2/20/07 10:02pm
Msg #176528

Re: Dorothy I'll be waiting for your apology, I said

Charles, what should I appologize for? Telling facts? Don't think so. And regarding Julie making herself "suit proof" by placing her home in a trust actually sounds like good legal advice to me and a very smart move on her part (yes, I did read both the messages). Maybe a few of us should take some hints from that information, do our jobs right and stop worrying about all the "what ifs". If I worried about all the "what ifs" I would be afraid to get out of bed in the morning. Take prudent actions and do the very best you can do is my motto (oh, and stop and smell the roses every now and then).

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/20/07 10:34pm
Msg #176532

If you don't know, then there is no use to belabor this!

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 2/20/07 11:09pm
Msg #176538

And some so deaf as those who will not hear n/m

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 2/20/07 11:11pm
Msg #176539

s/b None n/m

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/20/07 11:29pm
Msg #176543

:) Have a great evening Dorothy! :) n/m

Reply by Julie/MI on 2/20/07 9:26pm
Msg #176521

Re: I know that you are suit-proof by virtue of having nothing..

Charles, I don't live my life with "what if thinking".

When I sign my name as a notary public, I have identified the signers according to my state's laws and made sure the I's were dotted and the T's crossed. That is all a notary public is responsible for. If someone gives me a fake Michigan D.L. or state ID I cannot be responsible for that. That's why I say show me case numbers of a notary that was sued due to a true notary error, such as a wrong venue, date missing or something of that nature.

Maybe there are some handy internet folks or have connections at Western Surety that can tell us how many notary error claim there are in a certain period of time. Maybe good old NNA keeps stats on such things being that they sell the stuff.

Let me know Charles what you uncover.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/20/07 10:33pm
Msg #176531

There never was any question whether you are an adequate

notary or not, that is not for me to say. I will assure that I will never ask for your service. My issue was your supercilious posts about never making a mistake and being smug about having a trust. I have some dubious friends who happen to be attorneys and they take great pleasure in busting trusts and piercing corporate veils and they do it with almost obscene pleasure. I frankly don't care what the statistics show it boils down to whether you have something to lose or not. If one has assets at risk it would be prudent to cover them, if you are comfortable that you are as suit-proof as you believe then you should take comfort in that belief: whether you are or not can only be proved in a court of law and one day it may. I would never wish anyone to have to undergo the incredible examination of a law suit (If you have never been the subject of "discovery" hope that you never do) and I certainly hope that you don't ever have to. I'm pragmatic and while I consider myself very competent I would never say I am incapable of mistakes, that in itself would be a mistake.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/20/07 4:12pm
Msg #176480

Re: Just for starters Google "notary sued"

I see a lot of criminal behavior in these...great read, though...yet,
I wonder about notary *errors* which got a notary sued. Most of the
previously mentioned were truly fraudulent behaviors.

Any honest errors causing lawsuits?

Reply by Charles_Ca on 2/20/07 4:27pm
Msg #176482

I'd be willing to wager that the honest mistakes get

their fair share of lawsuits but are adjudicated appropriately (I have great faith in our judicial system, I just hope its not misplaced) and don't make the headlines. Unfortunately anyone can get sued, and in a situation where there is a lot of money at stake the offended party tends to sue everyone these days. I suspect that the insurers covering the E&O will assist with the defence to assure that they don't have to pay.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/20/07 4:32pm
Msg #176484

Re: I'd be willing to wager that the honest mistakes get

**don't make the headlines. **

Good point.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/20/07 4:02pm
Msg #176477

Yes...

There was a case here on Long Island last year. A woman took out a mortgage and had someone appear with her at the closing who forged her estranged husband's signature. I believe he also forged a quit claim deed so that she could get sole possession of the house. When the notary asked for ID, the guy said he left it home; the notary was somehow convinced (pressure from the broker?) that it would be OK if he just faxed it in later.

The husband was not amused when he got back from vacation and discovered he no longer owned the house. Neither was the DA. In addition to criminal charges against the woman and the forger, a civil suit was filed by the husband against everyone involved, including the notary. I imagine the notary's commission was revoked, but don't know that for sure; also, she may be looking at criminal charges for filing a false instrument (and stupidity in the first degree...).

Reply by Julie/MI on 2/20/07 9:17pm
Msg #176520

Re: Yes...

Okay, but once again, the notary did not check the id--so therefore, not by the book.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/21/07 7:44am
Msg #176568

Re: Yes...

"Okay, but once again, the notary did not check the id--so therefore, not by the book."

E & O covers not doing things "by the book", unless there was intent to defraud. I don't understand what kind of examples you could be looking for - what other error or omission could a notary make other than not following "the book"?

Reply by sue_pa on 2/21/07 10:14am
Msg #176582

Re: Yes...

A few years ago I wrote "County of February". When I went onto the next line and wrote "21st day of February" I realized immediately what I did. Another time I dated something 196?. I thought and thought about it and realized my borrowers were talking and that was the year they purchased their home.

Point being, I caught myself these 2 times. I've been a notary for a long, long time. I sometimes wonder if other things have 'slipped' and I haven't caught it. sure hope not but who knows. These type things are mistakes, not intentional and surely not intending any fraud or harm.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/21/07 2:16pm
Msg #176611

Re: Yes...

I've also caught myself almost making dumb mistakes - the other day I started writing "Suffolk" as the State rather than the County, because the borrowers were busy chattering away and I lost concentration for a moment.

I certainly understand your point, but mine was that the ONLY types of errors or omissions you can make while performing your duties as a notary are the result of not doing things "by the book" - unintentionally or otherwise - so I don't understand what examples Jill is looking for that aren't due to someone not going "by the book".

In the example I posted, the notary might be covered by E&O insurance (assuming she had any) if she could prove that there was no intent to defraud on her part.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/21/07 2:18pm
Msg #176612

Oops - that should be Julie, not Jill n/m

Reply by ewing2surf on 2/20/07 6:23pm
Msg #176496

Re: Has anyone ever heard of a notary being sued?

xyz sues notaries.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 2/20/07 6:25pm
Msg #176497

Personal experience

I've been charged criminally by two disgruntled affidavit signers, who later tried to get out of their affidavits. Also, in the same case, I had an unhappy police department further the charges on their behalf.

NOTE, HOWEVER, MY NAME WAS CLEARED.

Somehow the police department charged me with filing a false report (my jurat) and forgery of a notarized document (two counts). How? My attorney and I were stumped at the time and I still really don't know how a notary public can get charged with forgery of his own notary certification.

Luckily at trial the DA had no choice but to drop the charges because my so called "victims" weren't credible and their stories changed more times then they probably change their underwear. :-)

All-in-all my experience actually helped me network more with local attorneys. The attorneys learned about my case and they were stumped too (this allowed me to engage in conversations with them and exchange business cards).

Reply by Rhonda Skansi on 2/20/07 7:58pm
Msg #176506

I heard a story where...

a woman who worked for a bank eventually got her notary license as the bank wanted the convenience of her having one. A gentlemen wanted something notarized. He was apparently a contractor who was bidding on a government job and needed this document notarized. There was no notarial wording on it, so she picked wording for him and then notarized the doc. When he went to bid, he was told that it had the wrong notarial wording and he lost the bid and he sued the bank and the notary. He won. I heard this at the Wa State notary class by the instructor.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/20/07 8:18pm
Msg #176512

Forgery

"My attorney and I were stumped at the time and I still really don't know how a notary public can get charged with forgery of his own notary certification."

You should check your state laws. Forgery isn't just signing someone else's name. It often comes down to intent - even though it's your signature, if you signed intending to deceive or defraud someone, that could be considered forgery in some jurisdictions. In NY, notarizing a deed with intent to defraud is second degree forgery. It's the authenticity of the document - not the signatures - that is in question.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 2/20/07 8:39pm
Msg #176514

Re: Forgery

True, but the documents that I initially notarized were not in question. My "victims" weren't saying that I forged, or somehow altered their documents. They were trying to get out of perjury charges by saying that I wasn't present when they signed their documents. Yet, at a second meeting with the investigators, they stated I was present. Then, at another meeting, they said they never met me and didn't know who I was. Then, yet again, at another meeting, they signed an two affidavits in front of two disinterested notaries public saying that, (1) I was present; (2) I signed and notarized their signatures; (3) I administered an oath, etc. etc. etc.

My "victims" kept changing their stories and it's sad that the investigators (the DA or the police department) didn't turn around and get them for perjury or even filing a false police report.

I'm just glad the ordeal is over with and I can go on with my life. I was scared at the beginning thinking that the Jury was going to make a huge mistake at my trial and find me guilty. Literally, on the set date for my trial I was sitting before the judge, and right before jury selection is when the DA dropped the charges. The DA tried many tactics in trying to get me to plead to a lesser civil charge of forgery, but thank God I stuck it out and didn't give in.

My name was cleared. I'm just glad it's in the past.

Reply by jojo_MN on 2/20/07 9:40pm
Msg #176522

So, are you going to sue the women for lost income, etc? n/m

Reply by jojo_MN on 2/20/07 9:41pm
Msg #176524

sorry, meant the two signers n/m

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 2/20/07 10:56pm
Msg #176536

Re: sorry, meant the two signers

I want an eye for an eye. I want them to suffer through criminal charges as I had to (except in their case they will be found guilty). *evil laugh*

There is an attorney looking into the actions of both my "victims" and the police department that filed the charges. The police department is a whole other story for which I am too tired to get into tonight. Let's just say there was some police misconduct revealed by me and a Town Selectmen. A few weeks after it was made public I was charged with the pathetic crimes. My family says that a Lifetime movie should be made about everything going on. :-)

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/21/07 7:36am
Msg #176566

Re: Forgery

"the documents that I initially notarized were not in question. My "victims" weren't saying that I forged, or somehow altered their documents. They were trying to get out of perjury charges by saying that I wasn't present when they signed their documents."

Again, it depends on your state's criminal statutes and how they define forgery. In NY, this scenario could lead to second or third degree forgery charges against a notary, because the notary allegedly completed a false written instrument. Whether that can be proven is another thing, but I would imagine that the changing stories would cause any prosecutor to eventually drop charges.

The DA may have wanted to you to plead down because he still wasn't convinced about whether or not you were involved. There can be a huge gap between knowing that you didn't do something and getting them to believe you.