Posted by cqrodriguez on 2/21/07 10:03pm
Msg #176667

Need help I have a problem

Hello I am trying to see if you can help me. I did a signing and the borrower was a male but the documents were done under a females name. This person had just gone thru a name change and had the court paper work showing that she had changed her male name to a female name. Her drivers license showed as a male but signed it as her female name.. Was I suppose to take it or not... Please help!!!!

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/21/07 10:06pm
Msg #176668

Not a 'problem'...it's a Notary's nightmare. n/m

Reply by ananotary on 2/21/07 10:07pm
Msg #176669

You accepted court paperwork as id? n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/21/07 10:16pm
Msg #176672

Is this for real???!!!

First, what state are you from?

Secondly, you said "the borrower was a male", then referred to "her". Did you mean the borrower WAS a male, as in past tense?? If this is on the level, it sounds like you already know the answer. Bottom line, did the ID prove that the person before you was the same as the person named in the documents, in accordance with your state law? If you're not sure, perhaps you'd better express your doubts to your client asap, then go back and restudy your state's notary law....

Reply by Brad_CA on 2/21/07 10:25pm
Msg #176673

"Her drivers license showed as a male but signed it as her female name." Until the person takes the courts papers to the DMV and gets the identification/license changed, you may not use it. The identification does not match the docs. Also, the person signed the license with a different name than is printed above the signature line. RED FLAG

Reply by Larry/Ca on 2/22/07 2:15am
Msg #176695

Will DMV let you sign...

a name other than is printed?

Reply by Brad_CA on 2/22/07 9:07am
Msg #176719

Re: Will DMV let you sign...

If they did, the DMV also dropped the ball. Lots of RED FLAGS on this one.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 2/21/07 10:26pm
Msg #176674

Is this what they call getting your "vice versa"??

Hope that everyone has a great EOM

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/22/07 12:10pm
Msg #176747

Bob, I am interested in your thoughts on this. n/m

Reply by NCLisa on 2/21/07 10:36pm
Msg #176676

I have my own question, name change is the easy part. Is there a court proceeding the transgendered go through to legally change their sex from m to f or f to m?

Reply by Larry/Ca on 2/21/07 10:49pm
Msg #176680

Thats a good question......

it seems like these poor souls would always be burdened with a birth certificate that remained in their birth gender.

Reply by John_NorCal on 2/21/07 11:29pm
Msg #176684

Re: Thats a good question......

Actually most states have laws in place to handle that. The person needs to provide an affadavit from their surgeon stating that they have completed surgery to change their gender and presto changeo they are what they are.

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 2/22/07 7:50am
Msg #176705

In FL, there apparently is a court proceeding to change

a person's sex from male to female, based on how far into the procedure a person has gone. I'm not sure what the standard of proof would be... "Look judge I have added these and they have removed this". It probably requires statements from physicians for the judge! LOL

We did a signing with a transgendered person, male to female. S/he had a very deep voice and was dressed very revealingly, although we didn't really think the person had much of a figure. ID presented was a driver's license with female as gender and a female-sounding name, along with a copy of court papers showing the former name because that was requested by the lender. S/he had to do a QCDeed from himself to herself as well as the loan documents.

Reply by MichiganAl on 2/22/07 1:07am
Msg #176691

Only in California...Yeesh n/m

Reply by Gary_CA on 2/22/07 1:49am
Msg #176692

So let me get this straight...

You had no approved ID showing the name they signed (There is a very short list of what's good ID for notarization, it's in your handbook).

You had an ID that was on the list and looked legitimate and had a different name.

You stamped the docs.

ARE YOU DRUNK????

I mean, geesh... maybe I'd cash a check for someone with those court papers, but they're not ID. They're not ID for a notary cause they're not on the list. But besides that they've got no pictures.

They're recorded documents for crying out loud... I can go get a copy of them and show them to you with my driver's license.

It's not a matter of political correctness. It's not discrimination. It doesn't matter what (if anything) the doctor appended or removed.

You're an officer of the State, you've sworn an oath. With your stamp you're testifying that the person who signed is the person named...

What the hell did you write in your journal anyway??? A female name and a DL# for a DL that has a different name?? That oughta go down smooth.

Please... take your journal to your county recorder's office... it tells you how in the handbook, but just take it to the clerk, they'll figure it out.

Reply by Larry/Ca on 2/22/07 2:08am
Msg #176694

Gary, I read the original post....

as the person had their driver's license in a female name and was signed as such but that the gender was checked as male and the notary was questioning that. Original poster needs to make that clear.

Reply by Gary_CA on 2/22/07 1:31pm
Msg #176786

Ah.. if so I apologize, it was late and I was grumpy n/m

Reply by Claudia Rodriguez on 2/22/07 8:56pm
Msg #176843

Re: So let me get this straight...

Thanks for all the comments. But let me make something striagit I think I confused some of the people. I DID NOT NOTORIZE THE DOCS.....

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/22/07 2:29am
Msg #176696

I'm not seeing a problem.

If the documents said Jane Smith and the Driver's License said Jane Smith and had her picture on it it sounds like everything matches to me. Confirming gender is not part of notarizing.

"Male" and "female" names don't exist anyway, it's just the norms of society that classify them that way. If I want to name my daughter Frank and my son Jennifer I have every right to do so.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/22/07 7:02am
Msg #176700

Re: I'm not seeing a problem.

My only question is: Was it the correct person?

If so, what's the problem?

Reply by MichiganAl on 2/22/07 10:06am
Msg #176723

If I'm reading this correctly, the problem is...

The driver's license showed one name (the male name) and the person signed another name (the female name). So I.D. said Joe Blow, but Joe signed as Betty Blow. Sounds like a huge problem to me.

Reply by PAW on 2/22/07 10:20am
Msg #176724

Re: If I'm reading this correctly, the problem is...

Certainly can raise a red flag. But, what name is PRINTED on the docs? Is it the same name as PRINTED on the ID? If not, then the ID does not identify the signer. If it does, then the signer needs to sign the way the docs are prepared or the lender may reject it.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/22/07 12:35pm
Msg #176756

Re: If I'm reading this correctly, the problem is...

I think the question is just worded really badly.

I don't think the issue was that the signature and name didn't match on the driver's license (she didn't say anything about the name printed on the license), I think it was just that she looked like a woman, she had a woman's name, but the driver's license said she was a male.

Reply by Gary_CA on 2/22/07 1:36pm
Msg #176787

Before you go naming yer kids like that listen to Janey Cash n/m

Reply by Ernest__CT on 2/22/07 6:36am
Msg #176698

You need to clarify your question.

If by "Her drivers license showed as a male but signed it as her female name." you mean her female name was PRINTED on the license and she signed her DRIVER'S LICENSE with her female name, you should be fine.

If, on the other hand, you meant that her driver's license was printed and signed with her MALE name and the DOCUMENT(S) were signed with her FEMALE name, then you're in seriously deep trouble. Confess and resign your Commission.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 2/22/07 9:06am
Msg #176718

Not enough information

Are you saying the dl had for example Christoper Doe and the physical description said Male. Yet the dl was signed Christina Doe. The docs were for Christina Doe and she signed them as Christina Doe. I would say that the printed name on the id, id signature, printed name on docs, signature on docs needs to match or be a shortened version of the name printed on the id. So the signature would have to be either Christopher Doe or Chris Doe in order to notarize. In CA the handbook is specific that we go by PIPS. Physical description is a part of it. You can not worry about political correctness. If the gender is the same as on the id no problem. If it is different then by CA law then it is a problem. I think the problem in this case is the name printed on the id and the name signed on the docs are different and not the same or a shortened version so you cannot notarize.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/22/07 12:32pm
Msg #176755

Re: Not enough information

"Physical description is a part of it. You can not worry about political correctness. If the gender is the same as on the id no problem. If it is different then by CA law then it is a problem."

This has nothing to do with political correctness.

Unless you're checking for a penis, you can't say that you're using physical description to match the person. If I wanna legally change my name to Barbra Judy and start wearing dresses and makeup I have the freedom to do so.

And if I decide to do all that and not get my weenie chopped off, yeah, my driver's license BETTER still list my gender as male. And any notary who identifies me BETTER notarize my signature even though I may look like a woman and now legally have a woman's name. But even if I do that, my height will still be the same, my hair color will still be the same, my eye color will still be the same, so the physical description is still the same. Nowhere on my driver's license does it refer to my penis. But if it did, you better believe I'd add 2 inches to it!

Wow, I guess all those years of hanging out with drag queens finally came in handy.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 2/22/07 2:22pm
Msg #176804

Re: Not enough information

Aw Cali there you go thinking like a man. As utterly important as the penis is, it certainly is not the only identifying feature of a man. So this has nothing to do with looking for that all important body part. The gender of a person is part of their physical description. If the id says male and it's a male who's name is Bertha on the id no problem. But in the case of having a female present you with id that says male on it then that id is not for a female. One's gender is not defined by the clothes they wear.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/22/07 7:06pm
Msg #176836

Sorry SarahBeth, you're wrong.

So if not the penis, what criteria are you going to use to determine male vs. female?

The original post said that she was shown name change paperwork from the court, and that paperwork matched what was on the ID. It is quite likely that the person was a pre-op transsexual, meaning she had not had the surgery to change genders. If that were the case, she IS still a male, even if she looks like a female.

And if she was post-op and no longer had a penis, I'm guessing she would have also had paperwork from the court legally changing her gender and the license would say female.

With only a casual visual exam, you simply cannot assume gender to be part of the physical description. Some women look like men, some men look like women, they have every legal and moral right to do so, and it doesn't affect their legal gender AT ALL.

Having a female present you with an ID that says male on it and having a person *who looks like* a female present you with an ID that says male on it are not the same thing at all.

Unless you're willing to grab them and tell them to turn their head and cough, you'd better just go by whether the picture on the ID is the same person standing in front of you. If it's good enough for the DMV that way, it's good enough for us that way.

Now if the picture was from the days when she was still looking like a man, then you definitely have a case for refusing to notarize. But if it's the female looking version and the female name on the license, you have no grounds to refuse.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 2/22/07 8:11pm
Msg #176839

I am reading the original post as saying

The id was for a male. But it isn't clear on whether the picture was male. It sounds like the printed name, gender, and picture were male (but again unclear not enough info). Yet the id was signed with the female name.

I was saying if the id had printed name as male, signed as female, and docs were in female name as well as signature then no notarization. You can't notarize Christina when the id is printed Christopher. It doesn't matter what court papers say as they aren't acceptable id.

I will still say that there are cases when it is clear that the gender of the person in front of you is not the gender stated on the id. We could have a discussion on visual differences between males and females but this really isn't the place for that.

Reply by Terri_CA on 2/22/07 10:55am
Msg #176729

We do not certify gender. We only certify / ID the person in front of us is the person who is to sign the documents by comparing the printed name on the ID to the printed name at the signature line. If they match, that's what's important. While CA Law states that the ID must contain a signature, it does not state that the notary must match the SIGNATURE to the name they are being requested to sign.

Thus, they can sign the ID anyway they want, it's the printed name that we need to match to what they are going to sign on the document.

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by Gary_CA on 2/22/07 1:46pm
Msg #176790

Oh really???

We're in a bunch of gray area here... I haven't checked the manual, but if I recall from my (State mandated and State approved content) notary course one of the ID checks is to compare the signature on the ID to the signature just signed in your journal.

It's kinda common for folks to modify their signature... and I've on occassion ask them to sign my journal a second time "the way it is on your DL"

The other day I had a fella refuse to do that. Seems he changed his signature from legible to artistic chicken scratch after he had checks stolen and forged. He was a bit paranoid/adamant about it. Everything else was a perfect match, so I let it slide, but I consider it a minor fudge. (The signature in my journal matches everthing I notarized but not the ID, the ID matches the name of the docs and the dude that appeared before me).

I've no intention of confirming gender specific organs but if there were an obvious descrepancy I'd question it. If everything else jived (hair eyes height and weight give or take some silicon) I'd go on with the signing.

Just me.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/22/07 3:06pm
Msg #176812

Re: Oh really???

And I've seen people who, since their picture, have added or lost 50+ pounds, grown or shaved off a beard or mustache, changed hair color or even added some forehead, if you get my drift... I've never notarized a cross-dresser or transsexual (that I know of), but have notarized a couple of rather masculinized females. And I've had appear before me many a person who was told by DMV to print their name, that they couldn't use their normal signature because it wasn't legible! All of these situations are in that gray area and require us to make a judgement call. It's never going to be all black and white.

The CA law only states what items must be included on the ID, not how to interpret them. Most of the general physcial description (eye color, height, etc.) is going to be the same, as Cali said in his own inimitable way... ;> When it comes right down to it, in any given situation, we have to make a determination as to whether or not we feel the presented state-approved ID satisfactorily confirms to us that the person who is appearing before us is the same person as is named in the documents - regardless of how they are dressed or how deep their voice is or whatever other wierd set of circumstances we might encounter. (BTW, I DO look at signatures, but since I don't consider myself a handwriting expert, I wouldn't likely make a determination on that alone. I have, though, asked people about differences, to see what kind of a reaction I get. If warning bells are already going off in your head about other things, this could be just one more straw...)

Last point... This is a great example of how easy it is for miscommunication to happen. It seems that the original post was unclear and ended up interpreted different ways by various people. (I'm still not certain what exactly was being asked!) To get a meaningful response, it pays to spend a little more time to re-read and edit posts. 'Course we could end up missing out on a bit of fun if everyone did that... ;> jmho