Posted by MsRobboPA on 2/8/07 8:26am
Msg #174650

Purchase Closings and Attorneys

Recently I have been asked to conduct purchase closings. All have closed without a hitch until yesterday!!! This nightmare took place in a local attorney's office with an elderly woman selling. With her were her two sons and a daughter-in-law and then the poor buyer. The attorney present was a real pain in the #$%! He jumped right on me as soon as I walked in the office about the funds for the sellers, the paperwork, etc. I was immediately on the phone with the title company. The borrowers paperwork was signed in an upstairs office and then downstairs to the woman because she could not handle the steps. I do not have any problems with this except the fact that the attorney seemed to have the need to show who was smarter. He kept taking papers from me and making copies before they were notarized and the property deed for the seller had the selling price listed incorrectly and the attorney had to retype the deed (he wanted to white it out????) since the computer was in their main office and coudn't be accessed. The attorney then offered to drive to the main office and bring a new deed back. I ended up being there for almost 2 hours and it would have been 3 if he didn't type the new deed himself? We were back and forth with the title company at least 4 times. Why do attorneys feel that the notary's time isn't worth too much? No one wants to be rude to clients but this guy really brought me to the edge!

Just needed to vent this to other notaries who may end up in this situation.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 2/8/07 8:34am
Msg #174653

Been there, done that

Frankly I discovered I'm just not patient enough for this nonsense. I only do these now for specific clients, it keeps me happy not having to struggle to maintain control when you're dealing with people that have an ego the size of Texas.

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/8/07 8:51am
Msg #174658

Lawyers have 4 years of college & then they go to Law School. Therefore, they are allowed to charge very large fees. Therefore, they must LOOK like they are 'doing important lawyerly things' to justify these fees. Help them look important & they will shut up. I generally defer to them & ask if they would like to 'present the documents'. They won't. My favorite honest lawyer story: Man is a lawyer & snatches pile of paper from my hand & starts rapidly flipping thru the pages for about 2 minutes. Finally (ya' gotta love this) he says "Do YOU understand all this?" Yes, but I don't know why the numbers are what they are. You have any questions about those, you'll need to call your LO. "Well, I'm a lawyer and I don't understand all this." Signing proceeded normally. And, when we were finished he said "Thank you. I'm impressed." And I said "Thank YOU. You've just made my whole year."

Reply by SueW/Tn on 2/8/07 8:57am
Msg #174659

Excellent story Lee and one that makes you stop and think. I loved it! However (at the risk of turning this thread into a 2 pager) I think this gentleman is one in a zillion. Not many men and FEWER lawyers are going to make a statement anywhere close to "I don't understand this". I will now put on my kevlor vest, my helmet, and dig myself a fox hole.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/8/07 9:11am
Msg #174663

My boss is that kind of a lawyer. I love working for him.

Reply by TRG_wy on 2/8/07 9:26am
Msg #174665

I have done a few of these myself. I can relate to Lee's story. I have never sat with an attorney that knew anything about the docs. They all take the docs and scan them rapidily and hand them back to me and tell me to go ahead. Then they just sit there. They have all complemented me privitely afterward on my professionalism and knowledge and admitted they didn't have a clue.

I think they are there at borrower request and help ease the tension and stress of the whole process. Only one had the slighest clue and he got his little knowledge from his own personal real estate transactions and admitted I knew far more than he. I have never run across a true real estate attorney at a closing.

Reply by Becca_FL on 2/8/07 11:33am
Msg #174682

I had a purchase with an atty once where the atty insisted that the P&I shown on the Note included escrows. Well, there were no escrows being held according to the HUD, the escrow account disclosure or the first payment letter. I just shut my mouth and pointed out the facts on the documents that I presented to the buyer. If the buyer choose to believe the ramblings of this full time surfer/part time lawyer over the facts in black and white, then so be it. I did my job.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/8/07 10:40am
Msg #174672

It is always amusing to listen to people who know little or nothing of the legal profession attempt to interpret an attorney's conduct. It is called zealous representation of a client. When you have put in the time in law school, passed the bar exam and secured a license to practice, you will be qualified to offer an opinion.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 2/8/07 10:42am
Msg #174673

I totally agree with you Kevin HOWEVER it doesn't take a college education to know the meaning of "rude", being polite costs nothing.

Reply by PAW on 2/8/07 10:50am
Msg #174675

I certainly agree with Kevin. But what might appear as rude to some, may be over-zealousness (is that a word?) on the attorney's part. Some attorneys are over-zealous to the point of arrogance, but whether or not that is rude is purely a subjective interpretation.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 2/8/07 2:41pm
Msg #174739

***Some attorneys are over-zealous to the point of arrogance, but whether or not that is rude is purely a subjective interpretation.***

And there (as we say in hickville) is where you separate the beer from the foam.

If attorneys only rely on other attorneys to get them a majority of their referrals and business.. then by all means I say keep the arrogant attitude and play on player.

But if attorneys rely on connections and referrals from 'regular people' who are obviously too unschooled to understand that somehow THEIR arrogance isn't really arrogance... maybe they should use some of them 'super smarts' and try not to alienate a huge portion of their potential client base... it's just a thought.

Adapting to situations is something that not everyone can do well. Pontificating in a courtroom or playing hardball at a negotiation table is one thing... going out of your way to show up a notary to make yourself look smart is just stupid and unneccessary. I've given about 5 attorney referrals in the past year... and it certainly wasn't to the attorney that was parading his peacock attitude around.

Reply by rengel/CA on 2/8/07 10:51am
Msg #174676

There are many of us in this forum who work in the legal profession and know quite a bit about it. And it is usually called OVER-zealous representation of a client. We know it when we see it and the clients know it when they see it.

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/8/07 11:11am
Msg #174680

Kevin, you're one of the good guys. You have always been willing to share info or clarify something. And there are, thankfully, more good guys out there than rude and arrogant ones. As you are an attorney, the arrogant ones will NOT do that act in front of you. But, they do walk among us and, yes, they are trying to impress the client.

Reply by TRG_wy on 2/8/07 11:53am
Msg #174688

Although I agree in theory with what you state; it does NOT require anyone to spend time in law school, pass the bar exam and secure a license to practice law to render a valid qualified opinion. That statement renders a conclusion that only an attorney is qualified to render judgement on an attorney.

A Constitutional Law attorney is no more qualified to be a good criminal attorney than a mailman. Every attorney I have ever met is "specialized" in some particular area of the law. The same holds true for any advanced degree field or speciality. I, as a former telecommunications engineer am not qualified as an electrical engineer, even though we may have studied the same core course material and hold an engineering degree.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/8/07 1:58pm
Msg #174724

I would respectfully disagree with you. If one is going to opine as to the quality of service provided to a client by an attorney...he had better understand both the substantive and procedural law governing the services rendered by the attorney. Your anology between the telecommunications engineer to the electrical engineer has made my argument for me. Just as one discipline of engineering differs from the other so also one totally unschooled and unlicensed in the law lacks the qualifications upon which to opine.

Your example of the ability constitutional lawyer compared to the criminal lawyer was a poor choice, since a fundamental understanding of constitutional law is required in order to provide a competent criminal defense...i.e. Fifth Amendment rights...Unreasonable Search and Seizure...Double Jeopardy, etc.

I would love to know you would propose to offer a "valid qualified opinion" in these matters without that knowledge and understanding. You don't win it in a crap game.

While it is true that large law firms do divide themeselves into departments that deal with specific areas of the law, it is not unusual for lawyers within the firm to move between departments. For sole practitioners such as myself, we are trained in law school to be prepared to deal with a number of disciplines. We are constantly undergoing training, and re-inventing ourselves to deal with issues as they arise.

Reply by TRG_wy on 2/8/07 2:11pm
Msg #174731

I still do not agree that one must be an attorney to opine on the qualifications of an attorney. I have simply never met an attorney at a closing that knew what they were looking at as well as I did. Aside from the one single exception I noted, none of them had a clue at all. I think that qualifies me to render judgement as to their qualification to sit in on and review loan documents for anyone. I have even closed loans for attorneys who were cluless and expressed their appreciation at my detailed explanation to them.

The only point we disagree on is that I feel you do not have to be an attorney to realize their lack of knowledge in this particular arena.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/8/07 2:42pm
Msg #174740

Well let's look at what it is that you do. You can not explain the contents of the documents because that would be a UPL. You print a doc package, and supervise a borrower while he signs his/her name on a line under which his/her name is printed. You then sign and stamp an acknowledgement, and overnight the package back to your client. Do you really think that qualifies you to opine on matters of law.

Do you understand the different obligations for damages in the event of default imposed by a note and mortgage? Do you understand the difference in the type of encumbrance placed on the borrower's property by a mortgage in a title theory state as opposed to a lien theory state.

You seem amazed that an attorney puzzles over the contents of a doc package. I am not. In fact I was a closing recently, and was very confused by the closing documents...only to find out that the lender had made mistakes in his computations. Some of his documents contained figures including tax escrows..on other documents the same items did not contain tax escrows. The borower had previously made it clear to the lender that there was to be no escrow.The borrower refused to sign after the LO told her there were errors in the documents.

Reply by TRG_wy on 2/8/07 3:38pm
Msg #174748

Your interpratation of UPL in CT may be very different somewhere else. I can present a document, such as the Note and point out the actual interest rate w/o committing what you call UPL. There is a line for UPL and too many people paint it with a very broad brush. I don't advise and I don't interpret content. I make sure the signer is aware of what they are signing.

It is not my job, nor that of the attorney sitting there to "... understand the different obligations for damages in the event of default imposed by a note and mortgage? Do you understand the difference in the type of encumbrance placed on the borrower's property by a mortgage in a title theory state as opposed to a lien theory state. " These are the borrower's responsibilites because their actions/or in-actions can cause these results AFTER the fact.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/8/07 4:02pm
Msg #174754

I would beg to differ with you. If you are representing the borrower it is very much the attorney's obligation to make certain that his client understands the transaction into which he enters with respect to the note, mortgage and the encumbrance created thereby. Anything less is negligence. It is a cop out for you to say "Not my job, man." Very true it is the borrower's responsibilities because of his actions, but it is his attorney's job to explain it to him.

This involves more than pointing to an interest rate in a note. I agree with you that pointing out the interest rate is not a UPL. That is not what I was talking about when I mentioned explaining the documents. For openers I was talking about explaining the fact that in the event of default he can be sued for money damages under the note and foreclosure under the mortgage. These are separate remedies ...and there is more

If the attorney is representing the lender he is very much concerned with protecting his client's ability to enforce all legal and equitable remedies against the borrower in the event of default.

Your comments so far have dealt with a critique of attorney's and their ability to close. I think you need to re-think your position. I you have no understanding of the above matters...you are not in a position to pass judgment on the attorney's performance and the matters he has to consider in order to render proper performance.

Reply by TRG_wy on 2/8/07 4:15pm
Msg #174760

You stated "Your comments so far have dealt with a critique of attorney's and their ability to close. I think you need to re-think your position. I you have no understanding of the above matters...you are not in a position to pass judgment on the attorney's performance and the matters he has to consider in order to render proper performance."

Exactly my original point. I have never closed a loan where an attorney was present that knew anything at all about what they were looking at or had any understanding of real estate matters. That was my entire original post. Since they knew nothing, I am fully legit in stating the obvious.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/8/07 4:29pm
Msg #174765

So far I have not heard anything new ...other than your rehashing the same tired critique without any objective standard by which to judge the attorney's ability. All I hear is your subjective and unsupported opinion.

You critique the attorney for failing to live up to your personal standard of "excellence"
without ever defining the standard. It sounds quite smug and uninformed.

Reply by TRG_wy on 2/8/07 5:05pm
Msg #174770

If someone obviously hasn't a clue about something what more needs to be said?

The objective standard by which I judge the attorney's ability is that he/she had no idea about the real estate closing process or the documents presented. This is supported by their own admission and that is what I base my subjective and supported opinion.

You are blindly trying to stand up for them just because they are attorneys. If they are clueless and uneducated in loan documents why do you insist on claiming just because they are attorneys they know it all. My critique of the attorney for failing is wholly supported by their own admissions. Don't take my word for it, They said it.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/9/07 2:25am
Msg #174854

I find that rather hard to believe since attorneys are prohibited by an enforceable code of ethics in each state from taking work in an area of law until they have become fully qualified.
Your entire thread sounds more like a greatly exalted opinion of what you do in a closing.
So far, I am not impressed with anything that you have posted in support of your position.

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/9/07 9:49pm
Msg #175012

While an enforceable code of ethics in each state makes it where an attorney may not take work in an area of law until they have become fully qualified, this is the real world and unlike the law, ethics, et. al. Reality and the Books are two entirely different things. While you say you find it hard to believe, you obviously have not been practicing law long or you would know what the realities are. Just as Realtors(R) and their code of ethics and Real Estate Agents/Brokers' licensure law require that to practice a certain type of real estate (ie commercial, residential, etc.) they be qualified and experienced or they are to refer or consult with an individual in that field of expertiase I have encounted many times residential agents/brokers and Realtors (R) try and market and process commercial transactions with no knowledge or expertise and only muck things up. This my freind is a reality and as we all know theory and reality are two entire different things.

Case point. I recently went to a closing w/ an attorney who couldnt even explain an APR to her client nor the TIL. Now according to you, the code of ethics prevents her from practicing real estate law, well my friend I hate to break it to you but your living in an idealistic world and not the real world and its time to get back in the real world!

Just a penny for my thoughts and I just gave my two cents. Now I just need to know where I got that other penny from :-) ok just adding humor.

Have a great one all.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/10/07 5:14am
Msg #175056

Unfortunately, you are wrong. Violation of the state's code of ethics carries penalties ranging from censure to complete disbarment. If you would like to talk about the real world it is generally a good idea to know about that which you opine. You might want to research the information in the future, And no...I am not new to the practice of law. I have been practicing for 22 years.

If the attorney in your case in point was not qualified to practice in real estate law, you should have reported the matter rather than sit back and pompously pontificate about it.

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/10/07 9:34pm
Msg #175166

While I am well aware of what the penalties are your incompetence of observation has clearly been identified either that or your ignorance. I clearly stated that while the code of ethics are in place, the reality is they are unfortunately not always upheld. Why? Becuase of the fact that the general public doesnt report anything many of times, thus the incompetent attorney gets away with it. Again, I am well aware of what the realites are and my freind if you really have been practicing for 22 yrs then you may want to consider taking a break becuase you are clearly showing burn out. Why? Becuase your incompetence of clearly observing a person comment on face value with not mentioning the what-ifs when a person does file a complaint. I agree 100% with you in regard to the ramifications once a complaint is made; however, I did not state a complaint was made. Just like I teach my real estate students, never look into things. Take things on face value ONLY!

In regard to sitting back pompously and pontificate, you better believe I am going to when I refer/suggest the buyer several (notice not one but SEVERAL) well qualified real estate law attorneys but who choose to go with their matrimonial attorney becuase she just closed on her own home. So yeah I am going to pontificate. I have a black and white personality and if you so as I suggest your going to be fine. If you dont listen to my professional advise OH SO SAD OH SO SORRY. Dont come boo hooing and crying to me becuase you wont listen. I dont have sympathy for others and I dont expect others to have sympathy for me. If im wrong I expect to be held accountable, if others make mistakes then they should expect to be held accountable. In this case the buyer made the mistake of not listening and choosing the improper attorney and their accountability is not being represented propertly. I am sorry I dont mean to sound harsh on this, but to often and not just in real estate or law, just life in general there is not a sense of accountability.

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/10/07 9:38pm
Msg #175167

Correction...

I have a black and white personality and if you so as I suggest your going to be fine. If you dont listen to my professional advise OH SO SAD OH SO SORRY.

this sentence should read....

I have a black and white personality and if you do as I suggest your going to be fine. If you dont listen to my professional advise OH SO SAD OH SO SORRY.

Sorry made a typo and didnt realize it until afterwords. Ok theres my accountability LOL

have a great day !

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/11/07 3:55am
Msg #175187

Your posts exhibit that the totality of what you do not know about the practice of law far outweighs that of what you profess to know about it. One who takes things at face value...black and white ...shoot from the hip without questioning further is only making snap judgments with little or no knowledge of that which he/she observes.

While you fault the general public for not seeking reprimand of an attorney alleged to be incompetent. The question remains...why did YOU not report the matter since YOU were the one who found fault. As you say you know the consequence.

Stick to real estate and leave the practice of law to the professionals

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/11/07 3:56pm
Msg #175240

Leave it to an attorney to not take things on face value. Dont get mad becuase you were caught making a mistake. It happens your human. And as far as knowledge goes, bring it on my friend. I will step on you like a little bug. Once again you have exuded your arrogant attorney like know it all attitude when the reality is you know a lot about nothing.

Why did I not report the matter? I wasnt the person who was affected. If the buyer doesnt want to take the time and effort to make a complaint on an attorney who screwed them over, then why should I take MY TIME MY EFFORT AND MY RESOURCES to?

Give up my friend your only making yourself look ignorant and rude.

Have a great day.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/11/07 5:06pm
Msg #175247

You are really taking this personally aren't you? ...Squashing people like a bug? ... What a ridiculous statement... very unprofessional. You really have a greatly inflated ego ..don't you?
If you have something worth saying, please get to it, but PLEASE BACK IT UP WITH ASCERTAINABLE FACTS RATHER THAN UNSUPPORTED OPINION. Anything else is worthless.

I suspect that your failure to report the matter really stems from the reality that you have misperceived any grave mistake on the part of the closing attorney. If neither the buyer nor you reported the matter, I would have to think that your observation is without merit. If the buyer were your client, I would think that you would want to protect his interests.

No I am not mad. I have not been caught in a mistake. All I see with respect to your posts are accusations. I really do not see any tangible evidence to back them up.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/11/07 5:35pm
Msg #175254

Re: Purchase Closings and Attorneys - I agree Kevin

**...Squashing people like a bug? ... What a ridiculous statement... very unprofessional. **

What a clown. Really wants to be taken seriously. LOL I knew this was going to be good when they jumped in with a statement that they were very "sought after." ROFL

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/11/07 6:27pm
Msg #175266

First let me begin by saying I am sorry for my bad judgement of words and articulation on the " Bug" comment. I messed up and I was wrong. My appologies. While I didnt take it personally, I can definately see how it may have appeared that way. Just as the old saying goes with business..."its not personal its business". With that in mind I have learned that things shouldnt be taken personal, but i can definately see how it came across the wrong way and I appologize for that.

with regard to this comment however,

I suspect that your failure to report the matter really stems from the reality that you have misperceived any grave mistake on the part of the closing attorney. If neither the buyer nor you reported the matter, I would have to think that your observation is without merit. If the buyer were your client, I would think that you would want to protect his interests.


My observation was with merit. I was not the only one who made this observation. Both the TC that is a well known and respected TC in NJ noticed it ( the closing agent who works for the company that has been there since the 2nd yr the company was in business) as well as the seller's attorney. While I did do everything I could to protect my client's interests and performed my fiduciary responsibilities theres only so much one person can do, especially when the client is not going to help themself. Maybe this goes by my personality in general and not just in business but I have no problem helping someone who will help themself, but I do when the person doesnt even attempt to help themself.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/11/07 6:40pm
Msg #175269

I am sorry....I work in a court room where evidence is required to prove allegations. So far I have seen only allegations in your statements, but no evidence to support them. Reasonable inferences can be drawn from the failure to act as well as positive actions. If you did not report attorney incompetence, I must infer that there was none.

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/11/07 6:59pm
Msg #175271


Well I can definately say there was an incompetence. While I do have evidence of the incompetence, certian things should not be discussed on a public forum. While I dont know this 100% for sure and just heard it thru the great vine (a reliable one that has been accurate on things in the past for me), this particular attorney is being investigated on several different things - one of which is a the attorney's escrow account which is not up to par and you know as well as i do thats a big no no. And that comment is not to say all attorneys are like that becuase they arent. There are many many wonderful attorneys out there, just that unfortunately theres a rotten apple in the sack. The same can be said for Realtors(R) and other business professionals. I dont honestly know all of the particulars, just what the vine has mentioned to me. I know the escrow account is a whole other subject in itself, just mentioning one of the incompentencies this particular attorney exuded (spelling).

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/12/07 4:59am
Msg #175316

If you are not 100% sure and are reluing on hearsay, there really is no point to saying anything.

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/12/07 11:43am
Msg #175332

Your right I am relying on hearsay which is not enforceable, but I was merely mentioning what the reputation this attorney is making for themself. I just heard it today from another source. It will be interesting to see if it its true or not. I do hope that its not true, but from what I have heard (yes i know hearsay, but one can form their own opinions if theyd like-just not in court) it seems that it is true.

Have a great day!

BTW is CT expecting any snow this week?

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/12/07 11:47am
Msg #175333

I should clariffy why I hope its not true. Its a shame to see anyone jeopardize or mess with their lively hood and who worked hard to go to school, etc. only to do something stupid and mess with their livelyhood and licensure.

This happened with a real estate broker in my area 2 yrs ago and its a shame, but if your willing to play you better be prepared to accept the consequences. Unfortunately, I dont think he was prepared for the consequences and it hurt him both professionally and personally. Its a shame but it is what it is.

Reply by Julie/MI on 2/8/07 3:12pm
Msg #174745

Young couple lost a great interest rate due to lawyer...

Condensed version:

Fha closing, young newly married couple with baby on the way.

Lawyer was present at closing. Not a real estate lawyer, a divorce/DUI type of practice (by his own admission).

Interest rate on refi was going to make them save a ton of money. Got through the HUD/TIL/NOTE and RTC. Go on to rest of docs (fha from this lender was huge) get to the last docs, the 4506. Attorney says to couple don't sign that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Couple didn't get loan. Wife called me about 6 weeks later (that's when I stupidly left business cards with borrowers) and was in tears because they lost their rate because lender would not fund with signed 4506's. Attorney error. What a chump he is.

Reply by Paul_IL on 2/9/07 12:33am
Msg #174849

Typical Attorney Arrogance to respond that only another attorney can offer an educated opinion on an attorneys conduct!

If the attorney is not a real estate attorney then they should not be at the table. Over the years I have witnessed some great deals killed by non real estate attorneys.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/9/07 2:56am
Msg #174855

If you felt that there is a problem why did you not report the matter to the state's ethics/grievance committee for investigation? Are you aware that there are enforceable ethical requirements that prohibit an attorney from accepting work before he is fully qualified, or that violation of such prohibition renders the attorney subject to penalty.

There is also the right of the borrower to seek legal rederess for negligence. So far all I have heard are complaints about arrogance, and broad and unsupported allegations of incompetence. Actually it sounds more like the frustration of the uninformed attempting to comprehend something that is a bit beyond their reach.

In so far as the arrogance is concerned you may be misinterpreting the frustration an attorney experiences with loan documents that are an absolute mess and loan officers that are unresponsive and only interested in the end of the month commission. In so far as your perception of incompetence is concerned, you really need to go back to school to understand an objective standard by which to arrive at such a judgment.

Reply by Paul_IL on 2/9/07 11:17am
Msg #174929

Kevin,
Everytime you open your mouth on this subject you continue to reinforce the perception of Arrogance!

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/9/07 3:32pm
Msg #174955

That may well be. However, it does not change the fact that not one individual who posted in this thread has even approached the definition of the standard of care required for there to be negligence nor transgression thereof by an attorney. What we have is little more than personal opinions unsupported by facts sufficient to call into question the conduct of any attorney. I am still waiting to hear why you did not report the matter you cited if you felt that strongly about it..

Reply by sue_pa on 2/8/07 11:04am
Msg #174677

I've done a lot of purchases over a lot of years and have seen the rude and obnoxious attorneys described in this thread; however, they are the exception. Most are very knowledgeable of what is going on (even the rude ones) and have on many occasions had 'junk' fees removed from the HUDs that are common from out-of-town/state title companies. My own lawyer is a lot cheaper than a vendor management company when I compare fees - and he's a lawyer representing me, not the broker, not the lender, not the title company. Perhaps that is because in my area lawyers traditionally are involved in real estate closings for the buyer and/or seller. MOST attorneys in my area are just 'regular' people and are basically very personable during the small time frame we're together.

Recently I did have a totally useless lawyer there for a young buyer. She was his older sister and he said she was a 'contract lawyer'. She couldn't even read the HUD. She kept going down the seller's side and I could not get it through her head for quite a while those were not the numbers he was truly interested in - bottom lines were very close but she was a tough one to crack - he was too, obnoxious wanting to know the whys and wherefores of everything involved in the entire process. If I recall correctly, a VP at the lender was finally put on the phone to deal with these two.

Reply by Julie/MI on 2/8/07 3:06pm
Msg #174742

Yepper, those lawyers sure try to look important! Sounds like he had a big audience to perform for.

Funny ususally the seller doesn't have the attorney, usually it's the buyer.

However, I ALWAYS insist on keeping the buyers and seller separate. The loan details are no business of the sellers. Goes much quicker, less table talk.

I worked for register of deeds in my county for over 7 years, we kept an 8 pack of white out on the counter for the title companies to use. So it is acceptable so long as the title company doesn't care.

There is no way I would wait for a new deed, they could have crossed out the incorrect purchase price and wrote it in. BTDT.

I would have ever so sweetly told the attorney to keep his hands of the docs to protect the "stacking order", works every time, even if it's a know it all borrower, who happens to be a real estate agent (they are worse that attorney's in my opinion).

This is why it is ESSENTIAL that you charge more for a purchase. Live and learn.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/8/07 7:23pm
Msg #174795

How 'bout them LO's?

God bless the RM LOs I love some much, but they always get mixed up about something.

Sometimes if one spouse is not on title, they tell the people, "Hey, your spouse only has to sign a waiver." or "Mr. Smith only has to sign one thing so he can arrive late."

UH! NOOOO.

Also, I have seen this on refis where only one spouse is on title and only one spouse is signing the note. Arrgh.

That's when some will tell a tall tale to make you look like an idiot and nearly screw up their own loan by trying to CYA so they don't have to say, "Oh, I didn't know that." That scares the bwrs like, "Are these papers legal?" "Am I giving my spouse half of the interest in my separate property?"

Arrgh, again.

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/9/07 9:19pm
Msg #175006

You are much nicer than I. I make it known that if anyone regardless if they are an attorney or that I when I am the closing agent you will follow my rules and procedures or I leave and you still owe me my service fee. Take it or leave. thats my attitude. you work with me I work with you. I have had to set numerous attorneys in their place and becuase of it I am well respected and sought after.

Take charge and dont let others walk all over you.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/10/07 6:15am
Msg #175058

If you are saying that you would leave a closing without fully performing because you had a personality conflict with an attorney, I would have some difficulty seeing how you would have a valid claim for payment under any theory of contract law of which I know . I do a lot of collections work. If I represented a client who informed of nonperformance of contractual obligations due to a personality conflict, I would advise the client not to make payment.

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/10/07 9:11pm
Msg #175165

Before I arrive at the closing everyone knows my expectations and what they can expect of me. If they dont uphold to my expectations which are clearly written out I am out of there. We had an offer acceptance and a consideration. If they dont want to up hold to their end Im outta there and btw just becuase your an attorney does not now nor never will scare or intimidate me. I have been threatened on numerous occasions and I am well of aware of what I can and can not do and my limitations as well as the attorney's. I have chewed up and spit many out for breakfast and your no more special then the rest. There is a difference between Personality conflict and written expectations of each and every party. If i get there and the other party isnt holding up, Sorry charlie your loss. and btw I have taken several attorneys to court and have won.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/11/07 4:27am
Msg #175188

It is not my intent to scare or intimidate anyone...merely to inform with respect to the practice of law. While you may have a valid contract (offer, acceptance, consideration) which my earlier post assumes, the issue is not the validity of the contract but rather performance thereof. I have never seen a closing in which the realtor or signing agent calls the shots. Nor have I seen a sales contract or signing agent's contract which addresses the conduct of the parties at the closing table. No attorney is going to allow a non-attorney to dictate to him how he should respresent his client...first, it violates the code of ethics...second, it would subject the attorney to liability...third, one unschooled and unlicensed in the law is not qualified to influence one who is. If the terms of your contract upon which you rely violate the code of ethics of precepts of law they become unenforceable. If as you say you have "taken several attorneys to court, and won" , I would be interested in reading the case law. Please forward the case citations.

I have attended several closings in which overbearing and aggressive realtors have been ejected from the conference room . If one is acting as a realtor, he is usually there to collect his fee, and generally has little to say about the closing process otherwise. If one is attending as a signing agent his obligation is to have the doc package properly signed. If the signing agent had stormed out of one of my closings because his/her expectations have not been fulfilled, I would be on the phone to the lender/title company to give them the choice of getting another signing agent to the closing fast or to be sued if the transaction did not close,
since ultimately they as principals are liable for the conduct of their agents.

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/11/07 4:18pm
Msg #175244

>> It is not my intent to scare or intimidate anyone...merely to inform with respect to the practice of law.

While you may not have wanted to come across that way, you did with others in the room and I just am the one who speaks their mind and will call you on it.

>> Nor have I seen a sales contract or signing agent's contract which addresses the conduct of the parties at the closing table.

I am very sorry to hear that you have not, but it is clearly addressed in mine. Sorry if I cross my Is and dot my Ts but everything is spelled out for those that I work with. Just as you have to protect yourself, I protect myself and my business.

>> No attorney is going to allow a non-attorney to dictate to him how he should respresent his client...first, it violates the code of ethics...second, it would subject the attorney to liability...third, one unschooled and unlicensed in the law is not qualified to influence one who is.

No where did i mention that an attorney should allow a non-attorney dictate how he or she should represent his client. While one who is unschooled or unlicensed in the law is not qualified to influence one who is, the "unschooled" person as you put it does have the right to choose how she or he will work - he/she is an independent contractor who can agree to work on conditions acceptable to them. If its not acceptable to them, then they move on.

>> I have attended several closings in which overbearing and aggressive realtors have been ejected from the conference room . If one is acting as a realtor, he is usually there to collect his fee, and generally has little to say about the closing process otherwise.

I agree that there are some over bearing and agressive Realtors(R) that have been ejected from the conference room, this is not the norm. Did you ever stop to consider what the Realtor(R)'s concerns were? Especially for them to act so profoundly or did you just assume (like many attorneys do) that the Realtor(R) has no clue what they are talking about? While he or she may be there to collect their servicing fee that is not the only reason while he or she is at the settlement table. ONLY an arrogant pompous attorney would make such a comment.

>> If one is attending as a signing agent his obligation is to have the doc package properly signed. If the signing agent had stormed out of one of my closings because his/her expectations have not been fulfilled, I would be on the phone to the lender/title company to give them the choice of getting another signing agent to the closing fast or to be sued if the transaction did not close,

Again, I go back to my first comment. Before I go to the closing everyone knows how I operate. If you do not like how I operate, then find another signing agent or closer. Just as how you like things to be done, I have certain guidelines for myself and my business on how I operate. We are all allowed to make our own business procedures and guidelines. If you and I can not come to an agreement, then by all means find another agent. But, if we do agree and then I get to the table and you do not hold up to your performance. BUH BYE! Oh so sad o so sorry charlie.

>> If the terms of your contract upon which you rely violate the code of ethics of precepts of law they become unenforceable. If as you say you have "taken several attorneys to court, and won" , I would be interested in reading the case law. Please forward the case citations.

I will not waste my time on such. If you want to know, dont be lazy and do your research just like everyone else does. As a wise person once said, "theres no free lunch".

On a last note, remember this comment before you try an attack others comments.....
"knowledge talks, but WISDOM listens".

Have a great day my friend and I hope this comming week is productive and brings you blessed joys. Thanks for the discussion as well.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/11/07 6:30pm
Msg #175267

First of all even If you had a valid contract ( which I question) it would only bind the parties thereto. Not all parties at the closing table are parties thereto. .. least of all legal counsel on the other side of the transaction and his client. So I have some difficulty in believing what you say with respect to your contract.

With respect to your right to work under conditions acceptable to you as an independent contractor are concerned, it is true that you have the right to accept or reject work as you see fit. However, I believe that you mentioned in an earlier post that if the parties at the closing table do no comply with your expectations, you are out of there and still expect to be paid your fee. If as you say your contract addresses the conduct of the parties at the closing, and if you elect to leave the closing it would seem that you are attempting to impose your expectations upon the other parties to the closing...including the attorneys. In which case the closing could not continue depending upon the capacity in which you were employed. It would seem that if you are to be believed you would be attempting to force them to acquiesce in your expectations. If a non-attorney were to attempt this in one of my closings, I would have him up in front of a judge on a UPL, and he could explain his conduct to the court.

With respect to the ejection of realtors and this "Profound" concern that they have for their clients, I am having some difficulty in reconciling this with your earlier posts in which you stated that they follow your directions or suffer the consequences..."BOO HOO"..."OH SO SAD, OH SO SORRY"...I believe were your summations. You indicate that you take everything at face value "Black and White" without further investigation. You did not see fit to report the conduct of an attorney that you perceived to be questionable. So, where is this "Profound" concern of which you speak.

"Before I go to the closing everyone knows how I operate." I am sorry, but I have never run into a situation such as this in 22 years of closings. Furthermore, If I ever received an ultimatum such as this prior to a closing, I would certainly never agree to anything as ridiculous as that. If the situation arose in the closing resulting in the failure of the closing...legal action would follow.

With respect to the citations for your alleged law suits against attorneys, it is customary to cite the case caption, volume and page of the reporter in which the case is found. Without this information it is not possible to verify the veracity of your statement. That is precisely why I asked for the citations. If you are unable to cite these cases, I would have some difficulty believing that there were any such cases. In the alternative I would have to believe that if there were any such cases they were at best minor small claims cases with no memoranda of law explaining the basis of judgment.

Reply by NJ_Notary on 2/11/07 6:48pm
Msg #175270

>> With respect to the ejection of realtors and this "Profound" concern that they have for their clients, I am having some difficulty in reconciling this with your earlier posts in which you stated that they follow your directions or suffer the consequences..."BOO HOO"..."OH SO SAD, OH SO SORRY"...I believe were your summations. You indicate that you take everything at face value "Black and White" without further investigation. You did not see fit to report the conduct of an attorney that you perceived to be questionable. So, where is this "Profound" concern of which you speak.

OK I may have not articulated this well, but what I am trying to say is if someone is acting so irrate, maybe there is a good reason why the person is trying to others attention. Yes I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone when I represent them and they dont want to follow my advise. I have been successful at what I do and they hired me becuase of my experience and know how. This is just as why your clients hire you; becuase of your reputation, experience, et. al. But i do have a hard time feeling sorry for a client when they do the total opposite and they explicitly know that they are making a mistake. Atleast that was the case in this situation. I do have "profound" concern and let it known when appropriate. For example I have seen wrong items reflected on the wrong side of the ledger on HUD1s such as septic certs that the seller was to pay for but it was reflected on the buyer's side. This is just a very brief and simple dont get all upset kinda example but I believe you get my point.