Posted by DonnaV_CA on 2/23/07 4:32pm
Msg #176917

Signing if paralyzed?

I know that in CA we can notarize someone signing with an X if they cannot sign/write their name, with two witnesses who also sign the document, --- but is it possible to notarize a POA for example, if the person is paralyzed and can't move their hands to write the X? The person has full mental capacity so can understand, respond, but can't move their hands. Can they tell someone to write the X for them? Thanks in advance.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/23/07 4:54pm
Msg #176921

I don't know what alternatives are available to avoid writing a mark, but there may be ways to make the mark without using hands. For example, a drop of ink in the end of a tube; one puff and the mark is made. Or perhaps a electric rubber stamp with a mouth control. Of course, it would be up to the signer and his/her aids to arrange for the equipment.

Reply by DonnaV_CA on 2/23/07 4:57pm
Msg #176923

Good idea

I wonder if the person could hold a pen in the mouth and make an X with it. Thanks for the idea, I'll check on that.

Reply by DonnaV_CA on 2/23/07 4:55pm
Msg #176922

Cal SOS says

that the notary has to follow the rules under Signing by Mark... end of story. There is nothing in there about either assisting the signing X or the signer telling someone to make the X, just that the signer has to make the X.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/23/07 5:12pm
Msg #176927

Re: Cal SOS says

Does the law actually say the mark must take the form of an X?

Reply by DonnaV_CA on 2/23/07 7:45pm
Msg #176940

Re: Cal SOS says

No, it says mark, not X. The example they show in the book is an x.. but mark would mean that a squiggle, or curvy line or other "mark" would qualify.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 2/23/07 9:05pm
Msg #176942

A very interesting situation, thanks for posting that.

IMHO, of course you can notarize a person who's paralyzed, and it's quite possible. Page 16 of the handbook talks about a "mark" but a mark cannot be construed as an "X". If every handicapped person had to mark by an X, then I guess the CA SOS would be slightly guilty of discrimination.

I suspect a "mark" is just that, a mark. Any mark of whatever shape or configuration would be fine, according to how I read the handbook.

If you're not comfortable with the notarization, refer them to someone the signer knows who might be a notary (personal knowledge) or an attorney. If it were me and the signer could make a mark AT ALL and had the witness' described, I would do it.

If the signer could not make a mark at all (which you didn't ask)...then what to do? I'm curious about this - if a paralyzed person couldn't make a mark at all (incapable)? I think then, an attorney is required. If they can make a "mark", then you're good with the instructions in the handbook.

(this is not legal advice, etc. etc. and yada yada - such disclaimers, by a notary, on an internet forum irritate me to pieces, but there you go).

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/23/07 10:55pm
Msg #176949

If 'the artist formerly known as Prince' can use a 'mark'...

that has no equivalent on a keyboard, I would think this poor paralyzed person surely can. Oh, brilliant idea (maybe....what do I know about CA) Why not just use his thumbprint as his 'mark'????

Reply by Susan/CA on 2/24/07 9:28am
Msg #177002

I just had to add a comment to Title Gals response on the "this is not legal advice" mantra. I agree with you 100%, Title Gal, these disclaimers irrate me too!! Just say, "in my opinion," or "my personal opinion is" . ." geez no one is claiming that you are giving legal advice!! Sorry, I just had to commment on that since it was brought up.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/24/07 10:42am
Msg #177020

Re: Signing if paralyzed? Pontificating on "The Disclaimer"

Susan and Susan:

You both have a good point about the disclaimer. However, some of those of us who do the disclaimer did so because we were accused of UPL when we were wee little posters.

Anything to keep the, um...what do you call them Titsler? OJs...ostentatious jerks? Yeah, that's it...anything to keep the OJs from slapping my virtual hand.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 2/24/07 7:41pm
Msg #177080

Re: Signing if paralyzed? Pontificating on "The Disclaimer"

LOL "wee little posters"! I certainly had MY baptism in posting in this forum. Ahem.

And yes, Brenda....Ostentious Jerks is a favorite of mine. I like your short cut better...the OJ's.

Rolling my eyes into the next room as I type.....

Reply by NCLisa on 2/24/07 10:36am
Msg #177017

Can the person hold a pen in their hand?

If so, put the pen in their hand, with the it in the correct place on the page, and move pull the paper. The signer is holding the pen so technically they made the mark!

Reply by NCLisa on 2/24/07 4:33pm
Msg #177066

I was too tired to type my response correctly!! n/m

Reply by Art_PA on 2/25/07 3:21pm
Msg #177117

Isn't this a legal question? Was the POA prepared by an attorney? If so I would check with the attorney. Does anyone have a definitive answer not just a guess?

Reply by PAW on 2/25/07 8:19pm
Msg #177127

The answer is really state specific. For example, here in Florida, the notary can sign for the principal if so directed (and two witnesses witness the act). Actually, in Florida, the principal can direct anyone to sign for them, if witnessed. So a paralyzed person could direct the notary to sign for him. Of course, all the other requirements for notarization would still apply.