Posted by James H. Lissemore on 1/26/07 5:04pm
Msg #172750

Agent and/or Notary


Question for the Forum
Do you consider your self a signing Agent or a Notary that is a signing specialist?



DictionaryDefinition
An Agent in Commercial Law is a person who is authorised to act on behalf of another (called the Principal) to create a legal relationship with a Third Party. Agency law deals with the tripartite relationship between them.

N.J. Notary manual
A Notary Public is a public officer who serves as an impartial witness to the signing of documents and to the acknowledgement of signatures on documents. A Notary Public may also administer oaths and affirmations.
A duly appointed New Jersey Notary Public is authorized to perform notary services throughout the State of New Jersey

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 1/26/07 5:07pm
Msg #172753

I am first and foremost a Notary Public. I am also a signing agent.

Reply by Lee/AR on 1/26/07 5:32pm
Msg #172757

I had a lot of trouble with the word 'agent', too. But it IS a common term for us. Use the 2nd definition in the dictionary: an official. Or the 3rd: a substance that produces a reaction. LOL

Reply by jlissem on 1/26/07 5:39pm
Msg #172758

My lawyer also has problems with the word agent. On her advise I do not use it.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/26/07 5:56pm
Msg #172762

Re: Lee

How about "A Notary Signing Reagent?" Good Title?

Reply by Les_CO on 1/26/07 5:47pm
Msg #172761

Agency Law? Does an "agency" exist between the borrower and the Notary, when presenting a loan package, if the borrower pays the notary? even if this payment, comes through the title company (disbursing funds) I think the courts would say "yes". Does then the notary have a feduciary capacity/obligation to the borrower? I think the courts would say "yes". Does an "agency" exhist between notary and the title company, that contracted with the notary to do the job? Probably? How about the SS, that was contacted by the title company, that further contacted the notaty? Perhaps? Semantics! Semantics can be a problem. Can "impartial" be used in conjunction with "agent"? Can a Notary truly be an "impartial witness" while presenting the documents, and witnessing the signatures? I think yes. While an "agency" exists between the two? I say: "yes" again. Is this confusing? Yes. What's in a name? Would a Rose ...............

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 1/26/07 7:26pm
Msg #172774

My business cards and website use the term Notary Signing Professional. I consider myself a Notary Public first and foremost, and just happen to have the education and experience to perform loan signings.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 1/26/07 8:21pm
Msg #172776

You act as an agent for the company paying the FedEx, UPS, or other express charges when you send the package, because you create a financial obligation.

Reply by Elizabeth Soliday on 1/26/07 11:29pm
Msg #172803

Having just taken a class on "Real Estate Agency", I learned that an agent is one who acts on behalf of another (principal) when dealing with a third party.

Agent - me
Principal - Title Company or Signing Service
Third Party - Borrower

There is nothing illegal about calling yourself an agent. If I ask my brother to hire someone to mow the lawn of my rental property, my brother is my agent.

I am a Notary Signing Agent.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/26/07 9:02pm
Msg #172778

"An Agent in Commercial Law is a person who is authorised to act on behalf of another"

Does the word "agent" automatically mean that agency law applies? If so, what do we do with phrases like "travel agent", "secret agent", "free agent", "cleansing agent", or "degreasing agent"?

I briefly considered calling myself a "signing specialist", but then I realized that someone who gets paid to interpret for the deaf could also be a "signing specialist", and that's not what I do. Personally, I would prefer "Exalted High Master of the Notarial Profession and Revered Witness of the Loan Signing Act", but it won't fit on a business card unless I use really small type... or a larger business card...

Seriously - call yourself whatever you want, as long as you don't pretend to be what you're not. Someone made up the term "signing agent"; it has no legal meaning. For every lawyer you find that thinks it could be a problem, you can probably find two more who couldn't care less.

And not to pick nits, but "authorised" is the UK spelling - where did you find that definition?

Reply by Les_CO on 1/26/07 10:06pm
Msg #172787

Degreasing agent? I sort of like that! Notary Degreaser! Probably get a lot of calls to notarize phoney Green Cards. Was that Politically Incorrect?

Reply by ME/NJ on 1/26/07 10:48pm
Msg #172799

NJ- proof of ID and witness signatures only..no input n/m

Reply by James H. Lissemore on 1/27/07 6:34am
Msg #172820

Re: NJ- proof of ID and witness signatures only..no input

Thanks for the opinions. My concern is being put on the witness stand in a case where the borrower (3rd. party) is suing lender ( Principal ) to get out of a mortgage deal. You the Notary ( the agent???)
are sworn in.
Q.Were you acting as an agent when you signed this with borrower?
A _______
Q Are you a Notary Public ?
A Yes
Q Were you a disinterested neutral party or were you acting as an agent for the lender/title co ?
A_________
Q Did your compensation depend on whether or not borrower signed?
A__________( watch out if youn signed contract stating no or reduced fee if loan did not close)
I have been a witness in a number of civil suits ( not as a Notary) . The opposition lawyer will attempt
to tear your head off. You can fill in the blanks. Well might also file complaint with State against
you as a Notary.

Reply by sue_pa on 1/27/07 7:39am
Msg #172826

Re: NJ- proof of ID and witness signatures only..no input

...Q Were you a disinterested neutral party or were you acting as an agent for the lender/title co ?...

lender/title company paid you, they sent you their paperwork, they instructed you how to complete the order and how to return their paperwork. And you think you're not their agent?

Reply by James H. Lissemore on 1/27/07 7:47am
Msg #172829

Re: NJ- proof of ID and witness signatures only..no input

Sue
Thats acting as a contactor. An agent represesents the best interest of their principal

Reply by Les_CO on 1/27/07 7:56am
Msg #172833

Re: NJ- proof of ID and witness signatures only..no input

Sue, If the loan closes you are paid by the borrower (perhaps indirectly). If the loan does not close you could be paid by the Title company, or the SS. Rarely the lender.

(I too believe some sort of agency exists between the Notary Signing Agent and the Title Company. However I don't think this "tie" usually exists between the lender and the NSA, Unless hired directly by the lender, or the LO)

Reply by Les_CO on 1/27/07 7:43am
Msg #172828

Re: NJ- proof of ID / James

1st answer: Define "Agent"?

3rd answer: Define "disinterested neutral party" and "agent"? I was acting as a notary under this states laws.

4th answer: Define "compensation"? I was paid the statutory fee for witnessing the signing of a document(s) and further compensated for my travel time and expense for providing this service at the designated time and place.

Reply by James H. Lissemore on 1/27/07 7:52am
Msg #172831

Re: NJ- proof of ID / James

Try answering a lawyers question on the stand with a question. You sound like Bill Clinton.
If Iam on jury you sound evasive.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/27/07 8:07am
Msg #172834

Re: NJ- proof of ID / James

Wasn't he a lawyer too?
I thought this whole discussion was about "Agency"? I can NOT under oath swear that any "agency" existed between myself and the Title Co. relying on my understanting of the term "agency" This is why I would need the term defined. I was NOT acting as a "licensed title producer". Or a "Title Agent" (whatever that is?)

Reply by PAW on 1/27/07 7:48am
Msg #172830

Re: NJ- proof of ID and witness signatures only..no input

I submit, the Signing Agent IS an agent of the title company (or lender) directly or indirectly (if hired through a signing service). Being a notary is incidental (but necessary) to performing as a signing agent. So, if you answer "Yes" to the first question, that you are "acting as an agent", the second question about being a Notary Public is disassociated and immaterial to the previous question.

The third question though, is very valid, imo, since we must remain disinterested when performing in both capacities.

The fourth question is a subjective question that may or may not be easily answered. What constitutes an "interest in the transaction"? Whether or not you are paid for your service may or may not be considered having a direct interest in the transaction. (Key words are "direct" and "transaction", both of which would require a definition to establish a foundation for the question and answer.)

Reply by James H. Lissemore on 1/27/07 8:18am
Msg #172835

Re: NJ- proof of ID and witness signatures only..no input

I think lenders lawyer is going to try and prove that you were an independent contractor and NOT acting as an agent who was representing the best interests of the lender.
Your going to get pounded from both sides.
Borrower's atty. wants to convince jury you were acting as an agent for the lender and lender's atty. wants to convince them that you were a neutral party.

Reply by PAW on 1/27/07 8:37am
Msg #172837

Re: NJ- proof of ID and witness signatures only..no input

I'm not sure where the "best interests" comes into the definition of agent. The definition that I know is, "A person authorized to act for and under the direction of another person when dealing with third parties. The person who appoints an agent is called the principal. An agent can enter into binding agreements on the principal's behalf and may even create liability for the principal if the agent causes harm while carrying out his or her duties." (Blacks Law Dictionary)

Reply by James H. Lissemore on 1/27/07 8:54am
Msg #172841

Re: NJ- proof of ID and witness signatures only..no input

I think the bottom line may be.
Were you there as a Notary (disinterested) or were you there as an agent tring to get the borrower to accept the deal offered by the lender? Most borrowers do not know about s/s or t/c.
I make it VERY clear I am a Notary Independent CONTRACTOR and do Not represent the lender or their interests in any way and i have no financial interest in the trasaction as to whether they sign or not.
If a borrower sues to get out of a mortgage they are going to sue the lender.

Reply by PAW on 1/27/07 9:06am
Msg #172844

Re: NJ- proof of ID and witness signatures only..no input

I completely agree in the concept. However, being an agent of a principal doesn't mean you MUST act in the entirety of the definition. When I'm hired as an agent of the lender, it is very clear what my roles and responsibilities are. I am not there to "sell" the loan, nor make any commitment on their (the lender's) behalf. So, I guess I'm there as a "Limited Agent". Just like an attorney-in-fact having limited capabilities as defined in the POA, an agent's responsibility and roles must also be defined in some sort of contract or agreement.

As I've said previously, I offer a "disclosure" of what my role is when I meet the signers. I too tell them that I have no direct financial benefit from the transaction nor can I provide any information concerning the underlying details of the transaction. If I am hired by a title company, I also inform the borrowers that I do not represent the lender or broker. Thus the limits of my "agent" relationship is expressed, not implied.

Reply by James H. Lissemore on 1/27/07 9:09am
Msg #172846

Re: NJ- proof of ID and witness signatures only..no input

Paul
ROGER THAT!! Over and out
Semper fi