Posted by kellieco on 1/24/07 11:07am
Msg #172375

Question

I did a signing yesterday and I believe the borrowers were lying about their residence. They had their address on the docs as the house the loan was on. Their drivers license and my phone book said different. Their son's family was there during the signing. They told me that they all live there. Is it my duty to tell the lending company my suspicions?

Reply by Charm_AL on 1/24/07 11:09am
Msg #172376

your duty is to identify the signers and witness their signature.

Reply by kellieco on 1/24/07 11:22am
Msg #172380

I did that!

Reply by Signing_Doc on 1/24/07 11:38am
Msg #172384

If you feel there is a problem, make a note in your journal re your suspicions, then if anything comes up, you have it noted....but as was previously stated, we are there to identify signers and get papers signed...we are not the compliance police....IMHO if we DO become the compliance police, then we have an interest in this transaction.

"Doc"

Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/24/07 11:39am
Msg #172385

There could be a number of valid reasons why their addresses didn't agree - they may have recently moved and didn't have a chance to change their driver licenses, phone books are updated once a year at best (even on the Web it's maybe once every 90 days), etc. Unless your state law requires that you confirm their address as part of the ID check, you've already done your part.

Besides, if you sent copies of their ID back with the docs, the lending company will raise the question if they feel they need to.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 1/24/07 11:52am
Msg #172386

That's right, Mike

There are many variables as to why their ID refelects a different address.

Reply by Cam/CA on 1/24/07 12:06pm
Msg #172388

Re: That's right, Mike

I had the same thing recently. Borrower (single man) when I mentioned the address on the
DL was a different address he said that was the address where packages are delivered for his business as he is never home. I didn't say anything else, just noted in my Journal and put a sticky note on the docs saying ID address was different. IMO that's all I need to do.

Reply by CaliNotary on 1/24/07 12:31pm
Msg #172392

Why are you looking the borrowers up in the phone book?

Don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong. Do what you were sent there to do, period.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 1/24/07 12:32pm
Msg #172393

No sure if it is a great idea to note issue in your......

journal other than as a note that the address as shown in ID is different than
the PIQ if that is your normal practice.
If it appears that you questioned the "discrepancy" as to residence , and
did not report your suspicion to lender (tc) you might have a problem later.
If the bwr's actual residence becomes an issue later and your journal is
examined , you might get something
caught in the ringer for noting a problem and not reporting it.

Reply by PAW on 1/24/07 12:33pm
Msg #172394

We wear TWO hats ...

As the notary, it doesn't make any difference as long you identified the signers as to who they say they are. But that's only 10% of job.

As a signing agent, you are the eyes and ears for the escrow officer or title closer. They are relying on you for information that may be incorrect. Raising a flag is expected of the Signing Agent. But there should be nothing more than providing a possible discrepancy to the hiring agency. You are not responsible for resolving the issue. That's their (title/lender) job.

So, imo, yes I would let the title company know in a note to be included with the returned documents. No, I wouldn't make a big deal out of it at the table, nor call the SS, LO or title about it. Just a note.

I always provide a completion report to the hiring agency. In that report I include all the normal stuff (signing successful, tracking number, etc.) and I also include a list of anomalies and discrepancies if any exist, such as address discrepancies, spelling errors, etc.

Reply by Elizabeth Soliday on 1/24/07 2:23pm
Msg #172415

Occupancy Affidavit

If you notarize an occupancy affidavit, the person must swear or affirm that the information in the document is true and correct. If they do, then your job is done. Can't stop a person from lying. Also, in your notary book there should be a column for the address on their driver's license.

Reply by Paul_IL on 1/24/07 2:29pm
Msg #172420

Re: Occupancy Affidavit

Elizabeth,
Last time I checked you cannot notarize a document you know to be false! Unless of course you want to make yourself party to the fraud!

Reply by Kate/CA on 1/24/07 2:41pm
Msg #172425

She is assuming they don't live there, you can do anything

with an assumption.

Reply by Paul_IL on 1/25/07 12:49pm
Msg #172572

It can also be proved or disproved with a simple call! NM n/m

Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/24/07 4:58pm
Msg #172445

How does she know it to be false?

You don't "know" something to be untrue unless you have proof, and there's no proof offered here.

There are valid reasons why the address might not agree. I know people who have moved and then waited a year or more to change the address on their license, simply because it's a PITA to go down to DMV and get the forms - plus, here in NY you have the option of paying $8 for them to issue a new license after changing your address, or pay nothing and keep the old one until it's time to renew (at least that's the way it still was a year ago when I moved).

Unless you have specific instructions to verify the address as part of confirming ID, the most you can do is put a sticky in the package to alert Title to the discrepancy (and maybe add a note in your journal). At that point, you've done your job and it's up to the TC. We may be the "eyes and ears" as PAW said, but the eyes and ears have no control over the brain...

Reply by Paul_IL on 1/24/07 2:28pm
Msg #172419

Report your suspicion to the lender.

Put a not in the return package to the lender. And report this to the TC as well.

If you want to be more certain then contact the county assessors office and get the owners name for both addresses or you may be able to look it up online on the county website.

I had a similiar on several months ago. Assigned by title to do a closing at an address of a friend but the borrowers name was different. I knew that my frind rented the house and it turned out that the landlord was refinancing the property as owner occupied so he did not have to pay the higher interest rate. I put the Occupancy Affidavit on top and handed the form to him and explained this stated that this was his primary residence. He said it was and signed it. I told him that I knew for certain that this was not his primary residence and he said mind your own business. I picked up the docs and left. I called the settlement agent and the loan officer. LO was pissed and told me to go back or he would find someone that would. I mentioned Loan Fraud and asked for his manager. He "lost me in the transfer" so I called the mgr directly. The manager thanked me and informed me that I would be paid in full and the loan would not be closing till the terms were changed to reflect investment property status and said that the LO would be unemployed within an hour.

If you know something is not right then you should report it.

Reply by Elizabeth Soliday on 1/24/07 2:33pm
Msg #172422

Paul, assuming that you don't know it's false...a notary is

not supposed to do the detective work, just take the oath. I was certainly not advocating notarizing false statements.

Reply by Paul_IL on 1/25/07 12:35pm
Msg #172568

Re: Paul, assuming that you don't know it's false...a notary is

Since you are just a notary you do whateve you will but remember that being a Notary is only 10% of what an NSA does!

If I have a reasonable suspicion that something is "wrong" I would gladly spend 5 minutes to either prove or disprove my suspicion.

Reply by CaliNotary on 1/24/07 4:11pm
Msg #172437

Re: Report your suspicion to the lender.

Well assuming most of the signings we do are NOT at the house of a friend where the landlord is refinancing, we have no way of truly knowing what is going on in these types of situations. People move all the time, the DMV doesn't send out a brand new license to reflect the new address.

Don't make assumptions and don't go digging for information that's not your business. If the borrower says it's true then it's their problem if they're caught lying. The notary isn't responsible.

Reply by Paul_IL on 1/25/07 12:44pm
Msg #172569

Re: Report your suspicion to the lender.

Cali,
You must not have understood that part where I said call the assessors office to verify ownership. Unlike DMV the ownership info with the assessor would be current and would show which property gets the owner occupied tax rate.

My point was if you feel something is not right then Report it. Then if it turn out the borrower was indeed trying to commit loan fraud you are covered as you reported it.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 1/24/07 4:45pm
Msg #172443

I Also Had a Very Similar Experience...

...as this brings back memories of a signing I had in my first year in this business where the borrowers were a father & son. My initial "red flag" was that the borrowers insisted on meeting me in my office as opposed to the home where the son supposedly lived. I say "supposedly" because it turns out this was a rental piece of property the borrowers were attempting to pass off as their primary residence. It was a total fluke how I found out they were trying to pull off this deception. After the borrowers had finished signing & left, I noticed there was a document they failed to sign. I had the father's cell phone # {the ONLY # they would give me} & immediately tried to call him. All I could get was his voice mail. The home where the son supposedly lived was only 1 mile from my office, so I jumped in my car. After knocking a young woman answered the door & I asked for John or Joe Smith {the father & son}. She said John & Joe Smith were her landlords & didn't live there. I asked her pointblank, "so this is where YOU live & NOT John OR Joe Smith?". Her answer was in the affirmative. Needless to say I passed this little tidbit of information on to the company which hired me. I never heard another word about it so I still don't know what the final outcome was. It was my opinion then & remains the same today that I was under an obligation to relay the information I was given to the company hiring me. I wasn't playing "detective" or "private investigator" when I attempted to get the document signed. I just wanted to complete the signing. If the home had been 20 miles away from my office I never would've driven to the borrower's home not knowing if they would be there or not.

Having said all that I DO believe we need to be careful not to pass along rumors or our own unfounded "suspicions". If you're going to pass along information it needs to be "just the facts, maam". No editorializing or descriptive adjectives...just the facts.

Paul, one thing I might have done differently from you is I may have proceeded with my notarization of the documents. There are way too many factors outside of my purview for me to be the judge & jury as to whether someone is legally telling the truth or not. I may prefer to let a real judge & jury be the ones to determine the truth in a real court of law. Just because I believe it was not owner occupied doesn't mean it's a legal fact. There could be extenuating circumstances I'm not privy to such as the property WILL be owner occupied in the next 30 days. What if I'm taken to court for my refusal to notarize & it turns out I was wrong in what I thought to be fact. I definitely would've made a phone call like you did to the lender or title company, but I may not have refused to perform the notarization. Just because someone lies to me under oath doesn't make me a party to the deceit. The oath if properly administered is designed to make someone think twice about lying, but there are those who will lie to my face & I'll never know the difference. We're constantly told by our Missouri SOS to be ignorant of the contents of the documents we're notarizing. The contents are NOT our concern as Notaries...we're there to ID the signer(s) & perform any oath(s) applicable.

Needless to say you as the Notary must be comfortable with the situation you're in. If you feel you're following your state's Notary statutes by refusing to notarize in a particular scenario, you're the only one who will ultimately answer for your actions. BTW, none of my remarks are intended to be a criticism. I'm just stating how I might have handled your situation differently based on my knowledge of Missouri Notary statutes & in numerous conversations {one just this afternoon!} with our SOS on this particular issue. I also have the right in the State of Missouri to refuse to perform a notarization simply on the basis of being uncomfortable or uncertain & maybe I would have refused as well. My point is I just don't think it's "cut & dried" as to a "one answer fits all" for situations like this. JMHO!

Reply by Paul_IL on 1/25/07 12:47pm
Msg #172571

Re: I Also Had a Very Similar Experience...

Dennis,
If I was UNCERTAIN I would have notarized and reported my suspicion to lender and title. Reporting the suspicion will cost you nothing if it turns out to be a false suspicion. If it turns out to be true then lender or title will most likely remember that you saved them on this.

As far as your SOS saying you should be ignorant of the document that would be true it all you are doing is notarizing a document but being a Notary is only say 10% of what we do as NSAs. I wonder if your states Department of Financial Institutions would feel the same way if you knowing notarized a document that assisted someone in committing loan fraud.

It all comes down to CYA. If there is possible Loan Fraud I will be extra careful because I am also a Real Estate Broker and Title Agent so I have way too much to lose to be associated in any way with Loan or Real Estate Fraud!

I agree that every situation is different. The original posters situation could easily be resolved with a simple call to or search of the county assessors website to ask who the owner of record is for each address and if it is the same which one gets the owner occupied tax rate. If I was Uncertain I would take 5 minutes to either confirm or disprove my suspicion.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 1/24/07 2:58pm
Msg #172428

KellieCo: I think more information is needed

Other than the D/L address difference, please tell why you believe the brws were lying.

I agree with most everything said here, but just the difference in the D/L address would NOT be enough for me to consider them lying. Coupling that with their family being present and saying they all live here wouldn't raise a flag either.
Here in FL, we have many people with dual addresses, and I for one, cannot discerne which one is their primary residence, and which one is their second home just by their D/L and family presence. The phone book: well, if I had a second home, both my phone numbers would be listed in the phone book.
There must be something else?


<<<I did a signing yesterday and I believe the borrowers were lying about their residence. Their drivers license and my phone book said different>>>

Reply by kellieco on 1/25/07 3:01pm
Msg #172588

Re: KellieCo: I think more information is needed

I did a search on the counties web site. They also own the home at the address on their drivers lic. They did not sign an owners occupancy. Only one stating they owned the property. The house on the loan was very run down and dirty. It was a small maybe 2 bedroom home. The older couple were very neat. I asked for a copy of their drivers lic. The son and Mother were discussing taping them to a piece of paper and copying them on the sons fax. The mother said she does it on hers all the time. I guess it just comes down to I just had a feeling.

Reply by MelissaCT on 1/26/07 10:01pm
Msg #172786

Occupancy inspection

can be ordered by lender if a question arises about actual occupancy. Include a note back with documents and wipe your hands.

Mortgage deed gives lender the right to inspect the property at any time, with notice, inside or out. Let the lender deal with it, IF THEY feel it's an issue of theirs.