Posted by Les_CO on 1/23/07 10:23am
Msg #172145

To CA notaries about your journal entries

The other night I had a closing that required eight separate notarizations, plus two separate name affidavits for the spouse, for a total ten. I work in Colorado; we here (thank God) do not have the same requirements as far as a “Notary Journal” as does California.
My question is this (after reading many posts about this subject on this board) If I were in California I would have had to use TWENTY lines in my notarial journal? And had each party SIGN TEN times EACH?? Along with placing their individual thumb print(s) in the Journal TEN times EACH??? For God’s sake WHY? Are TEN signatures any MORE LEGAL than ONE? Are TEN thumb prints? This seems unbelievably STUPID to me. I can understand noting the signatory’s form of photo ID, and the number, and perhaps having them sign the journal (for a ‘sample signature’) and a fingerprint of some kind wouldn’t hurt. But MORE than ONCE……?
Here in CO I note the type of documents (Loan Pkg.) and deed, if any (DOT/QC etc.) the persons name & address, photo ID #, X date. That’s it…. And yes, I’ve been to Court regarding a document I notarized. The Judge told me in CO all I must do is be able to say (swear) (indicating the person) “That person signed this document.” That’s it. No ID, no fingerprint, no signature. (Especially no redundant signatures!!) My grasp of this subject may be flawed…that’s why the question.

Reply by DellaCa on 1/23/07 10:30am
Msg #172146

This has been discussed a few times before. Yes some do enter separate lines and sign and print that many times. Some enter separate and draw a line at the end so signer signs 1 time and 1 print. As far as myself I use the Notary Rotary journal 1 line for one loan and just mark off everything you have in docs to notarize. Its a blessing love it.

Reply by janCA on 1/23/07 10:53am
Msg #172148

Les, I am one of those line item people; I was taught this way and I've never deviated. Many times you can just draw a diagonal line from one line item to however many docs you are notarizing and have the borrower sign on that diagonal line. Also, you only need a thumbprint for certain deeds of property, not everything you notarize.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/23/07 11:00am
Msg #172150

Thanks for your answer! That sounds reasonable to me! I can envision no instance where redundant signatures would have a more legal effect? I have never seen a NotRot Journal. I've always supposed it was for use in CA. As I said our laws are different here in CO, and it may not be the best journal to use here. Are there any Colorado notaries out there that use the Notary Rotary Journal? Does it work here?

Reply by Mindy_WA on 1/23/07 12:41pm
Msg #172160

Re: I'm not in CO, but..

In WA, we are not required to even have a journal. I do keep one, and have made my own version of a journal that I feel is similar to the one here. I check off each type of notarization in this journal and have them sign once. I find that keeping track of each notarization is helpful at tax time. As, here in WA, we can deduct $10 per signature on our taxes as Notary income. I just like to be able to go back and know exactly how many sig's I have notarized. Keeps more money in my pocket at tax time.

Mindy

Reply by Les_CO on 1/23/07 2:17pm
Msg #172169

Re: I'm not in CO, but..

Thanks Mindy, I too keep a journal. For some of the reasons you stated, and, I usually include the company I'm working for, the type of documents, the miles traveled, the amount I charge, and if, and when I'm paid. Don't get me wrong, I think keeping a journal is a GOOD thing. I know at least dozen 'notary/processors' here in CO that have done thousands of loan docs, and keep NO journal at all! However, they all work for title companies, and are notarizing docs, in their offices, in conjunction with their jobs. It's interesting that you 'made your own journal'! I may just buy a NotRot journal and see if I can modify it for my purposes?

Reply by Gerry_VT on 1/23/07 3:28pm
Msg #172191

Re: I'm not in CO either. . .

but Vermont also does not have a journal requirement (although I keep one). We often read in forums about companies requesting an extra blank acknowledgement. That suggest things occasionally get "signed" in some title office instead of by the borrower. So suppose the borrower claims to have signed and acknowledged 9 documents, but the lender has 10 signed documents with notary certificates in hand. Will your journal let you determine who is right?

Reply by Les_CO on 1/23/07 4:11pm
Msg #172206

Re: I'm not in CO either. . .

I do NOT keep track of the individual documents I notarize in my journal. ( just those that effect title)
I have been a notary since 1970.
I have worked in the Real Estate business since that time.
I have been a "Signing Agent" for the past 6 years.
I have NEVER had anyone ask me for a "spare" acknowledgement. ( or an acknowledgement/jurat to attach to a document that I "forgot" to notarize.) This DOES NOT mean I have never made any mistakes! The VERY first signing I did, the wife did not sign the DOT! I was busy notarizing the next page, told them each to "sign as your name is" and she got up to get the (hungry) kid a bottle. I left, drove to Denver..(this was in CO Springs) looked at the docs...saw the error. Called them, said I'd be back! Drove to back to CO Springs (70 miles) had her sign. Breathed a sigh of relief! Thought about it driving all the way back! A GOOD lesson!!!!!

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 1/24/07 8:33am
Msg #172347

Re: Also not in Colorado. . .

. . .but in PA, you would have to do all you mentioned- record separate entries for each document notarized. PA doesn't require customer signatures, but it requires everything else: date of doc, type of doc, parties to the document, date of transaction, notary fee paid. It's a lot of writing, and it's also a lot of protection for the notary AND for the customer.

As someone else said in this thread, when a copy of a journal entry is requested, you wouldn't want to have to give more than the entry because you used lines or ditto marks to indicate "same as above." Ever watch Law & Order or Shark or any of those other TV legal shows? When anything is introduced in court by testimony or evidence, it becomes fair game to the other side. Your customer might not want every transaction revealed like that.

Sure, it's a stretch, but it happens. Just like a tornado or hurricane or mugging doesn't happen to you, it always happens to the other guy. It's playing the odds.

Off my soapbox - I'm not a risk-taker anyway!

Reply by Mindy_WA on 1/23/07 7:26pm
Msg #172284

Re: yeah...

I get a charge out of making my own forms. It's some weird personality flaw. But for anyone who is concerned. It is bound and covered...with security for previous signers.

Reply by LCS_CA on 1/24/07 12:13am
Msg #172336

some additional info on journal entries... long (sorry)

The California Escrow Association had an article in their newsletter some time ago about journal entries. The author of the article explained the benefit to the "one line item per notarization" method, complete with signature and thumb printing (when applicable), is that if a copy of a line item from your journal was requested, especially if it were in connection with a law suit or some other investigation, that you would only provide that particular line item and nothing else. (sorry for the long sentence…) So, if they requested the line item for the deed of trust, that is all they will see. The argument is that if you have one signature for several documents, when the line item is requested you would be providing more information (all the documents that you have listed or checked off) than was requested and could perhaps land yourself in hot water. An excerpt from the article is included below along with another article about proper journal entries. This is long, but perhaps some readers will find it interesting…

I use the MoJo and check off the boxes and have the borrower just sign once. I take the thumbprint for deeds of trust, grant deeds and other conveyancing documents as required by the SOS. I don't thumbprint unless it is specifically required.


From the CEA News, Volume 35 No.3. 2003 (this is a portion of the article): In the past, many notaries have indicated the documents signed by the document type, such as trust deed, signature affidavit, occupancy affidavit, and had the signer sign only one line item entry and only one signature line with all of the document descriptions somehow fit in the "document type" area.

Recently, many of us have heard a representative of the Secretary of State's office indicate that this practice is unacceptable and that notaries must create a separate line item entry for each signature on each document. This is a time-consuming task for a set of loan documents, yet is supported by the code.

In attempting to answer the objections of escrow practitioners, the same representative of the office of the Secretary of State has indicated that the use of columnar ditto marks for each entry following the first entry for one person's appearance would be acceptable. For example, one could create a primary line item containing the date, time, document type, name of person appearing and identifying document information, which would be the same for all entries. Then, following line items for the same person and same appearance could be listed with ditto marks used to reflect the information which remained the same, changing only those items that differ, such as the document type and date. Hence, information common to the particular group of notarial acts would be listed only once, on the first line, rather than written repeatedly for each entry.

The Secretary of State's representative has also indicated that although it is preferable for the signer to sign each line item, it is acceptable for the notary to draw a diagonal slash in the signature area, from the first entry to the last for the same signer. The signer would then sign only the diagonal line rather than every line item entry.

Here the notary must examine what constitutes a complete record in accordance with the requirements of the Secretary of State against what constitutes a record reproducible by the notary with minimum legal exposure.

When a notary is requested to provide a photocopy of a line item to a requesting party in accordance with statute, the notary will typically limit the amount of information provided to the requesting party to only that information which has been requested. Most notaries do this by placing one piece of paper above and one below the line item entry in question, so as to block an information not pertinent to the request.

If a notary journal were kept in the manner that employs the use of ditto marks and a diagonal signature line, it may be difficult or impossible for the notary to provide only one line item, rather than the entire block of information. Is the notary then able to produce when requested a single, complete line item for a single official act?

With the use of ditto marks and a diagonal signature line, it is possible that the notary could end up providing more information than requested. In many circumstances this may not be an issue. However in the case of litigation, it is conceivable that by providing more information than requested, a notary could unintentionally aid a party in the discovery process, thereby unnecessarily exposing the notary to further liability.


The following is an excerpt from the CEA News (Vol. 37 No. 1 2005 issue) Submitted by the California Secretary of State’s Office • Published by the National Notary Association:

In audits conducted by my office of various Notary journals, a signature is sometimes captured once on a diagonal line drawn through several line items, indicating that the person signed multiple documents. In this situation, if a member of the public requested a specific line item from this Notary’s journal for only one of the multiple documents, the Notary would be required to provide a copy of all line items within the diagonal signature line because the signature was shown only once for all documents. Obtaining a signature for each line item would be a better way to ensure that every line item is complete for each notarization.