Posted by Sharon Taylor on 1/3/07 12:59am
Msg #168793

Unbelievable! Prior notaries never ID'd borrowers

Got a call this afternoon for a closing tonight about an hour and a half driving time away. Called the borrower, spoke with Mrs. borrower, and asked if she could get photocopies of their IDs, that I would see their original DLs at the table and send the copies with the package as part of the proof of identification. She said they could, I confirmed driving directions, and all seemed fine. When I got there, Mrs. borrower turned out to be a non-borrowing spouse, showed me her Social Security card, and was suprised when I could not take it as an acceptable ID. She told me that not only had it been accepted as her ID by 3 previous notaries who had held their previous 3 closings (they have investment properties as well as their home), but also that she had not been asked to sign any documents on the last loan as her husband is the borrower, not her. And these notaries had merely glanced at her husband's ID and handed it back to him. TN is a partial-homestead state, and the non-borrowing spouse must sign the DOT, Riders to the DOT, RTC, Itemization, and a few other docs. Any notary doing closings here has a responsibility to be aware of the basic requirements of his or her state, but the previous notaries obviously either did not or didn't care.
We spoke with the L.O., who agreed with my decision regarding proper ID, and the Mrs. borrower is going to the DMV tomorrow to get a non-driving photo ID so we can hold the closing tomorrow evening. He told me the reason the loan was being resigned is because the previous notary didn't have the non-borrowing spouse sign. Granted, her name was not on those docs, but a notary who is going to conduct closings has a responsibility to learn the basics before doing a closing. On-the-job training is NOT acceptable!
I got the name and phone number of last notary, who accepted a SS card as ID and who didn't have the non-borrowing spouse sign the required docs. I'm tempted to call her with a friendly word, but then am not sure how she might take it.

Reply by jojo_MN on 1/3/07 1:20am
Msg #168795

It is amazing how many times I've heard the very same story. Not only that, but I've had at least three couples in the last month tell me that they have received the cash out from their loans when they refinanced the same day as signing when they closed at the banks. Before you ask, yes--it was on their primary residence!!! It is not only the notaries that don't know their jobs, but many times the lenders.

It is my feeling that all states need to have notaries take a test just like they have for civil service jobs. The tests are four hours long, but at least you know that the notaries that pass deserve their certification. Open book tests like certain other companies use should not be allowed. IMHO

As far as calling the notary--that's a tough call. If I were doing something wrong, I personally would like to be told, but not all share that feeling.

Reply by Lee/AR on 1/3/07 5:30am
Msg #168804

Just turn him/her in to the SOS. This goes to the very core of being a notary---sheesh.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 1/3/07 7:08am
Msg #168805

I agree with everything you said but I do not have the non borrowing spouse sign anything unless they request me to do it or I see their name on the docs. The non borrowing spouse may not really be on title and I cannot take someones word (couple at table) that they are both on title unless the lender/title company asks. In Maryland, the non borrowing spouse signs the Til, Rtc, Deed of trust and a few other docs as well, but if they are not on title to the property, they do not have to sign.

Reply by Sharon Taylor on 1/3/07 8:19am
Msg #168810

In TN, non-borrowing spouse always signs for TN property

Loretta, you illustrate my point. Someone acting as Mobile Notary doing loan closings should know the basics of their job. If the property is in TN and is the borrower's primary residence (homestead), then the non-borrowing spouse does need to sign certain docs, always. In other states, like yours, the non-borrowing spouse does not have to sign under certain circumstances. A call from the notary to the signing agency, title company or lender once he or she sees there is a non-borrowing spouse whose name is not on the docs would let the notary know how to handle it for that loan. I not only asked the first several times I did closings in this state, but I also inquired further as to the specific requirements for my state and received excellent guidance from a couple of signing agencies that operate out of my state and know the requirements backwards and forwards. If the property is not the borrower's primary residence (homestead) or if the borrower is from out of state and is merely for convenience sake signing the paperwork here on property that is out of state, I always call to verify whether the lender and title company need a non-borrowing spouse's signature as well.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 1/3/07 9:00am
Msg #168812

Re: In TN, non-borrowing spouse always signs for TN property

Morning Sharon...boy oh boy do I know what you're talking about! If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard "the last time I did this I didn't have to do that" I could take a month or two off! The last purchase I did the RE's were shocked that I had a "book" that had to be signed and verbally interfered when I put the buyers under oath stating in 20 years this had never happened. Their exact words were "this oath thing makes it seem like some sort of ceremony"...HELLLLLOOOOO??? One borrower called her last notary to "request" a copy of her journal entry (knowing this was NOT done) and evidently the notary moved away! Like you I know NBS needs to sign specific docs BUT I never do that without the go ahead from Title. I have discovered that the spouse isn't always the "spouse" by legal standards. Asking for a marriage license isn't something I do.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 1/3/07 9:24am
Msg #168816

Re: In TN, non-borrowing spouse always signs for TN property

Ater owning my title business for 10 years, I have learned alot. I have seen the wife swear she needs to sign, when in fact, she is not on the deed to the property. And my point is, the spouse isn't always the spouse nor is she/he on title just because they said so. The non borrowing spouse should sign certain docs if they are on title, not just because they are married. I have to hear it from the title company/lender first.

Reply by Debra Holston on 1/3/07 3:10pm
Msg #168882

I have had several closings where the borrower would tell the LO that he/she was not married , only to find out when I call to set the appointment that they're indeed married.
Alabama is a spousal state so I just get them to sign anyway after I inform the title co. I have never had any returned. It is good to know your state laws.

Reply by PJM/MI on 1/3/07 12:11pm
Msg #168848

I hope you tip your hat to the NNA for churning out the newbies who are "Certified" but never taught what they really need to know. Like STATE laws. The NNA is in CALIFORNIA, for heavens sake. Why would a TN/Mich/OH notary need to know the laws? (I'm being "catty" with that last sentence).

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 1/3/07 2:24pm
Msg #168874

does it make it better, or worse ...

The NNA has an office right in Lansing ...

Reply by Joan_OH on 1/3/07 5:47pm
Msg #168904

How did the notary break the law? If the notary did not have the wife sign anything, then there would be no reason to ID her or notarize her signature. Maybe the notary didn't have her sign those docs BECAUSE she didn't have ID?

I get more and more document packages from Mainstream lenders where they put John J Smith and (blank) husband and wife on the mortgage and the wifes name is not printed on any documents. I know which ones the Non-borrower signs, but geez, it's like the lenders want us to finish their job. We are notaries - not lenders, not title officers, not attorneys. How hard would it be to just print the names on the docs that you want the non-borrower to sign? Maybe they wouldn't have ill-trained signing agents sending back packages with incomplete signatures if they would just prep their docs.

Joan-OH

Reply by Arthur Scott Welch on 1/3/07 6:11pm
Msg #168907

Everyone is their own boss - for better or worse!

I certainly understand your frustration. I also realize that notaries that are incompetent makes us all looks bad (and gives the signing and title companies another "excuse" to reduce fees).
However, I strongly believe in privacy and the idea of being an independent contractor,
as opposed to having coworkers in a 9 to 5 job. I personally would be very upset if my
personal information were to be given, for whatever reason - good or bad, to another notary.
I am responsible for my own performance and am accountable to the company that hired me
and will cut the check. Also I am accountable to the borrowers and everyone else who has an actual interest in the loan (loan officer, mortgage broker, bank, and settlement company). I have nothing to do with the other notary and vice versa.
If a particular notary is truly incompetent, that notary will not last very long in this business anyway. If I had reason to believe that a notary was actively engaged in defrauding the public then I would consider notifying the state. I am in New York.