Posted by Stamper_WI on 7/13/07 10:26am
Msg #199729
Question about NNA
My understanding is that they are a non profit organization or association. Do the mebers get an accounting of the activity and treasury? I am asking in reference to general organizational information of such entities. For example obviously there are employees and they must be paid. Is there a year end accounting to the members of earnings and costs?
| Reply by rengel/CA on 7/13/07 3:42pm
Msg #199797
Directly from the CA SOS
Below is the information on the NNA cut and pasted from the CA Sec. of State's website. They are a corporation, not a non-profit.
http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/corpdata/ShowAllList?QueryCorpNumber=C1243331
They are TOTALLY in it for the $$$$$, don't be fooled.
My .02
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DISCLAIMER: The information displayed here is current as of JUL 06, 2007 and is updated weekly. It is not a complete or certified record of the Corporation.
Corporation
NATIONAL NOTARY ASSOCIATION
Number: C1243331 Date Filed: 4/11/1984 Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
9350 DE SOTO AVE
CHATSWORTH, CA 91311-4926
Agent for Service of Process
MILTON G VALERA
9350 DE SOTO AVE
CHATSWORTH, CA 91311-4926
| Reply by Stamper_WI on 7/13/07 3:44pm
Msg #199799
Re: Directly from the CA SOS
My understanding is that associations have to register as a corporation
| Reply by rengel/CA on 7/13/07 3:51pm
Msg #199802
Re: Directly from the CA SOS
I don't see anywhere on the NNA site that they are a non-profit. Am I missing something? I never thought that they were non-profit.
| Reply by rengel/CA on 7/13/07 4:10pm
Msg #199808
This just in....
The NNA is a non-profit organization. I just received a reply from their Notary of the Year, Joan Sampson.
So I learned something new today.
As for members receiving any info at the end of the year regarding where the money goes, I've been a member for over three years now and have never received anything like that from them. I'm sure you could request a copy from them or the SOS.
BTW, I will not be renewing my membership when it expires.
| Reply by ZeeCA on 7/13/07 4:56pm
Msg #199818
I think for an org such as NNA they just have to make the
info available upon request not send it out to everyone ...
jmo...........
and THX for the great and diligent research rengel/ca
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/13/07 6:39pm
Msg #199830
How do you know?
How do you know they are a non-profit org? Just because she says so or do you have more documentation to back it up? I think lots of people are confused about that and I used to be one of them. A while back I did a little research and found out that they have a foundation that is non-profit and is registered as such. (I looked it up on a website for non-profit organizations a while back, but the NNA itself was no where to be seen on that list. That may be why they use the ".org" on their website.) I have no idea what portion of their activities this foundation represents, but I suspect it is a very small part. If memory serves, they used to print something on the last page of their monthly magazine about it. It makes them look good -- and I imagine it does do some good things. More information on it is probably available from their website. (I don't even have that bookmarked any more.)
A true association, as Stamper_WI is referring to, would have leadership elected by its membership. (Someone posted something fairly informative on this recently, I believe.) Clearly, IMHO, the motivating force behind their actions is to make a profit, not to act for the benefit of it's membership. Again, this is all just my opinion...
| Reply by Harry [NR] on 7/13/07 7:05pm
Msg #199831
Re: This just in.... (NNA Catch-22)
I believe a 501(c)(6) trade association must derive its revenue from activities not ordinarily conducted for profit. If you look at NNA's revenue stream, you have:
Notary Bonds and Insurance
Notary Supplies (Including Stamps, Seals and Journals)
Notary Education
Membership Fees
These are the same areas, point-for-point, that we, as a for-profit, collect revenue from and the first three are unquestionably ordinarily undertaken in profit-driven ventures.
Other than third-hand information, and not counting NNA's charitable foundation, do you have definitive proof of their alleged non-profit status? How is their mail metered? With non-profit indicia? Is there some sort of statement that inquiring minds have overlooked on their web site?
The perception among much of the signing agent community is that they are operated for-profit. That belief, combined with the reality that a true "notary association" would have an extremely difficult go of it from a revenue standpoint, are strong indicators that NNA is likely a for-profit venture for the benefit of Milt, Mike and Mark.
In either case, NNA seems to be in a very poor position and probably won't be clarifying the issue any time soon. Here's why:
1) If they are a non-profit, then they probably shouldn't be and there would be a strong case for unfair competition if they are, in any way, benefiting from non-profit status, including perceptions.
2) If they are a for-profit and have been holding themselves out as a not-for-profit, which includes not correcting the market perception that they are non-profit, then there also seems to be a very strong case for unfair competition. This is especially so since many state governments believe NNA to be an altruistic, for-the-benefit-of-notaries entity and some essentially advertise for them.
As an interesting aside, we were told by one Secretary of State's office that NNA once insisted that the Secretary of State's notary division stationery include NNA branding. The gal we were speaking with said, "Uh, no." If I remember correctly, that was somewhere like Montana.
Harry
Notary Rotary, Inc.
| Reply by Stamper_WI on 7/13/07 7:40pm
Msg #199838
Re: This just in.... (NNA Catch-22)
Thanks Harry. I have been looking into forming a non profit association of WI notaries for the purpose of notary education and for working with elected officials for some needed notary law and administrative code changes. I feel that the network of loan signers would be perceived as a special interest outside of the pure notary issues. Recent attempts of notary law changes gets buried in with the pork and gets nowhere. There is a need for a comprhensive bundling of notary law issues and "someone" needs to take the initiative and work on it.
In looking at where I see the NNA inputing in to legislation on both the state and national levels as well as their input into title industry policy (ie interperting the Gram leach bill re back ground checks) I figure there are some pretty big salaries in the NNA as well as funding to push their position. The slaries are probably well earned and for the most part justified. But from what I have seen, that positions bottom line is for profit. An example would be the NNA BGC only position represented by the NNA. Every one of the big 5 have backpedaled on that position if they ever held it at all.
In the case of them representing the notary position on anything in WI, I would have to question their motives. Especially since they have promoted the loan signing aspect of their offerings. They advertise this and with an "oh by the way" we can help you get your notary commision for a price.
I don't know about an "organization" formed with the purpose of working in the notaries interest creating a panic amongst those notaries to create a greater profit margin. At least that appears to be what happened now that the dust has settled a bit.
| Reply by Stamper_WI on 7/13/07 7:47pm
Msg #199839
Dollars to donuts
The NNA receives a great amount of their profits from the loan signing side. I understand they require additional membership to "tap" into that end and only if you have first taken their loansigning course and back ground check. Corresct me if I am wrong.
| Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 7/13/07 7:53pm
Msg #199841
Don't shoot me, but...
I agree in principle, but not with the interpretation of the law. I am NOT championing the NNA, but I don't see a non-profit precluded from engaging in otherwise profitable activities, just that it may not do so for profit.
I quote from the following site, "No part of a business league's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual and it may not be organized for profit to engage in an activity ordinarily carried on for profit...":
www.irs.gov/charities/nonprofits/article/0,,id=96107,00.html
If the NNA is directing profits to an individual(s) within the organization, they should be reported to the IRS, hopefully to undergo an audit. JMHO
Respectfully  ,
Rachel
| Reply by Charles_Ca on 7/13/07 9:55pm
Msg #199853
Re: This just in.... (NNA Catch-22)
Greetings Harry and Miz Stamper: I am certainly not an enrolled agent or CPA and hardly an attorney but I have formed various corporations. The main issue that I have is not with NNA's actual tax status but how they represent themselves. The NNA represents itself as the voice of the notary, as an association of notaries and they are not. There are non-profits that own for profit businesses and receive the profit from those businesses to run their non-profit operations, the Hughes conglomerate comes to mind which owns for profits, Hughes Aircraft, Hughes Electronics etc and these support the medical institutions which are non-profit. I really don't see a problem with that. To my mind however to truly represent the notary community I believe that free elections are an absolute necessity and that the organization must have boards of directors and officers who are actually members of the notary community. Anything else would not be representative of the community. Now whether this organization would be either a non-profit or a for-profit is only an accounting difference and not germane to my definition of a mutual benefit organization.
In my personal opinion the NNA is a wolf in sheep's clothing and they have been profiting of the backs of people by obfuscating their true intent for a long time and its time it stops.
| Reply by NCLisa on 7/13/07 8:16pm
Msg #199844
NNA - Non-Profit - found this on their website
In an interview with NNA President Milt Valera
http://www.nationalnotary.org/news/index.cfm?Text=newsNotary&newsID=1087
You have stated often that the NNA is unique, and have pointed to its infrastructure as an example. Can you explain?
One of the things I became aware of as a young executive here is that many people have a naïve tendency to believe that "non-profit" means that you don't have to worry about expenses, revenues and budgeting. But nothing can be further from the truth. At the NNA, our intention is not to make a profit, but rather to be financially responsible in order for us to continue to provide Notaries with exceptional services. It is a constant challenge to provide services commensurate with the needs of today's Notaries and still to keep member dues and other services reasonable. We are able to do it because we operate the NNA in a business-like manner, using proven business principles.
Hiring is another steep challenge we face regularly. But we are able to succeed because of our dedication and diligence in recruiting the right kind of people — people who care and share the NNA's commitment to Notaries. And, of course, people who are smart and educated. Upwards of 90 percent of our staff of almost 300 have continued, or are continuing, their education beyond high school. Better than 50 percent of our work force is college degreed, and most promotions in the organization come up through the NNA ranks, as illustrated by the backgrounds of five of the seven high level executive managers here.
Finally, we stress civility, honesty and trustworthiness in every corner of the NNA, all traits that we expect of Notaries. In my nearly four decades at the NNA, this policy has worked very well for our organization and I know it will play a major part in propelling us to even bigger accomplishments.
In maintaining a strong infrastructure, finances certainly must play an important part in the growing NNA.
Without question, particularly for a non-profit association. We receive no government funding, no financial support from industries and no grants from foundations. We have to make it all work with the funds from member dues and the other services we provide. And in many ways, despite the challenges, we like the independence because it uniquely represents how Notaries must work — independently and without bias.
I've already mentioned that we utilize sound, proven business practices to run the Association, and I am very proud that we have not had to burden the membership with frequent dues increases, despite escalating expenses for improved benefits, continuing R&D projects and rising operational costs for fuel, postage, salaries and the like. Our last dues increase was three years ago, and try as we did not to raise dues, we are forced to do so this year. But I am pleased to report that renewing members will not be impacted by the increase for at least a year, or for as long as they wish to renew in advance for their membership. In this way, we are saying "thank you" to our loyal members by giving them an opportunity to actually delay a dues increase — for as long as they like!
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/13/07 9:02pm
Msg #199849
Re: NNA - Non-Profit - found this on their website
Wow! That's some pretty serious tap-dancing! I have to wonder if they would need to squeeze so many new fees out of their members if they were more flexible and sensitive to what notaries really wanted (especially NSAs) and therefore didn't lose so many members through alienation. It would be really interesting to see what their membership turnover is... I don't even want to bother commenting on what he said about the future plans. Sounds like more of the same.
| Reply by Harry [NR] on 7/14/07 5:06am
Msg #199879
Re: NNA - Non-Profit - (Where's the beef?)
I don't see any direct statements in this excerpt that read, "NNA is a non-profit association."
I see Milt's take on other people's beliefs regarding the operations of non-profits.
I see his stated intention not to make a profit.
I see a statement that NNA is operated in a business-like manner. (A somewhat self-evident truth; arguably, virtually all businesses are operated in a business-like manner. Wouldn't they otherwise cease to be businesses?)
I see a paragraph beginning "Without question, particularly for a non-profit association," which could be another general observation regarding non-profits, but not necessarily specific to NNA.
I see a reference to "member dues and the other services we provide" (areas typically aligned with associations), but, oddly, no reference to products (a huge revenue source and the lifeblood of nearly all for-profits in the notary world).
Related to the last point, if we suppose that NNA is a $40 million/year company, the revenue probably breaks-out roughly as follows:
$10MM Bonds and Insurance (for-profit domain)
$10MM Stamps, Journals and Other Supplies (for-profit domain)
$10MM Training and Educational Materials (for-profit domain)
$10MM Member Dues and Signing Agent Fees (mixed domain)
These fairly wild estimates are based on our own experience along with observations we've made with respect to NNA market share. (You would not believe the number of NNA-issued bonds and insurance policies we've seen come through in connection with aspects of our business. With the exception of certain geographic pockets where regional players are dominant - Pennsylvania and Texas, for example - NNA appears to be cleaning up.)
So, again, they seem to be conducting business squarely in the for-profit domain and, like Charles has pointed out, they do not appear to operate as an "association" with respect to corporate governance. Of course, this is all pretty much moot unless a competitor or competitors were to make the case for unfair competition OR the NNA membership, collectively, were to argue that their interests are not being served in the manner they were led to believe they'd be served.
Harry
| Reply by christiSocal on 7/14/07 5:31am
Msg #199880
Maybe we should all join the NNA
and "collectively argue our interests are not being served!" (as we were led to believe) 
| Reply by NCLisa on 7/14/07 4:00pm
Msg #199920
When you tell them your interests are not being served
they choose not to respond. I can't tell you the number of letters and emails I sent to the NNA during the years I was a member, and I never received even one response.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/15/07 2:34am
Msg #199971
Re: NNA - Non-Profit - (Where's the beef?)
Excellent post. I found it very interesting that he neither confirmed or denied that they were a non-profit, but clearly intimated that they were. He must be pulling in a significant income from there. It sounds to me like he's carefully researched what he should and shouldn't say from a legal perspective, so he knows what he can get away with. I wonder what kind of tax return they file....
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