Posted by justin/CA on 7/5/07 4:18pm
Msg #198588

borrower using a stamp

I have a signing tonight that the borrower has minimal useage of his hands so he uses a stamp. I've been told by the lender that I have to have two witness' which the borrower can not provide. Now the lender wants me to find two additional notaries to go along to be the witness.

Can I get some opinions please!

Reply by Philip Johnson on 7/5/07 4:26pm
Msg #198589

Tell TC fine, but I need $100.00 on the hud to cover my 2 witnesses; otherwise the borrower and or his LO need to come up with 2 witnesses. By the way what does the state of California say about this?

Reply by Philip Johnson on 7/5/07 4:29pm
Msg #198591

page 14 and 15 of the handbook state the way this is done. n/m

Reply by CopperheadVA on 7/5/07 4:27pm
Msg #198590

I don't provide witnesses. On the one occasion that I was asked to provide witnesses (for a Louisiana property), I told the TC that I will not ask my friends or neighbors to do that - they must have the borrowers find their own witnesses. If your TC wants two additional notaries to attend as witnesses, why don't they find two on NotRot and offer to pay them to attend? That way each notary has their own deal with the TC, their own confirmations, etc, and you are not caught in the middle.

Reply by justin/CA on 7/5/07 4:35pm
Msg #198593

They have no problem paying for the extra notary/witness. My concern is the verbage that needs to go the documents per California law. I don't have my current book but they tell me there is a section about this on page 56.

Can any California notary help?

Reply by CopperheadVA on 7/5/07 4:46pm
Msg #198598

Does your Secretary of State publish the CA notary handbook on-line?

Reply by JohnnyB on 7/5/07 4:46pm
Msg #198599

At least they told you in advance

Reply by DEvans/CA on 7/5/07 4:47pm
Msg #198600

I don't have a page 56. But I found it on page 14 Signature by Mark. If you still need this info reply again. I will tell you what it says.

Reply by Brenda/CA on 7/5/07 4:54pm
Msg #198603

You can print a copy of the 2007 Notary Public Handbook, it is available in PDF format. Use the link below:

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/notary_hdbk.htm

Reply by justin/CA on 7/5/07 5:01pm
Msg #198606

Thanks sooo much.

Reply by DEvans/CA on 7/5/07 5:04pm
Msg #198607

did you get the info you needed?

Reply by justin/CA on 7/5/07 5:29pm
Msg #198616

Yes I did. Stopped by a local Kinkos and printed it off

Thanks for the help!

Reply by Stephanie_CA on 7/6/07 5:41pm
Msg #198757

Re: borrower using a stamp/2007 Notary Public Handbook

...I found this on the CA Secretary of State Website.....
SIGNATURE BY MARK
When the signer of an instrument cannot write (sign) his or her name, that person may sign
the document by mark.

PAGE 14 OF 2007 California notary PUBLIC HANDBOOK.
This tells me that a signer may SIGN the document by MARK.
I didn't see anything about a stamp.

Reply by JanetLA on 7/5/07 6:37pm
Msg #198647

Witnesses in Louisiana

In Louisiana, we always require two witnesses in addition to the notary on mortgages for immovable property. I never provide them unless the borrowers want to come to my house. The title companies cannot possibly pay my friends and family enough to go on all my signings with me. I always tell the borrowers about the witness requirements in advance because most of the docs are coming from out of state and most TC and SS do not know we need two witnesses in addtion to me as the notary. I guess some states allow a notary to be one of the witnesses? In Louisiana, notaries may never witness the docs that they notarize, ever.

Reply by Joe Ewing on 7/5/07 5:35pm
Msg #198620

This is a Civil Code matter. The code is clear on the witness requirement (2). One witness who prints the signers name next to the signers mark then signs his own name and another witness who signs his own name only. No ID is required from the witnesses. However this is a heck of a way to do a loan signing. Your Notarizations are all you are "on the hook" for so stick to the code and disallow the rubber stamp. The signer makes a mark.

The signature affidavit could be where the signers stamp is used and from that point on it's up to the lender to accept the signature stamp. If the lender applies civil code then those two witness would have to witness each time the signers uses that stamp. That should be a long and boring Loan Signing.

Reply by VioCa on 7/5/07 6:31pm
Msg #198645

As far as I know on the recordable documents the borrower cannot use the stamp, has to make a mark somehow, on the rest of them it is up to the lender if the witnesses have to sign next to each stamp. If the lender allows it, they have to sign only on those papers that require a notary acknowledgement or jurat

Reply by Joe Ewing on 7/5/07 8:22pm
Msg #198655

That is exactly what I said Vio except the civil code also applies to documents that are not notarized too. If the lender accepts the stamp then everything can be stamped except the notarized documents. However in reading the question the lender (allegedly) wants several notaries to be witnesses to the stamping of each non-notarized document.

The use of a signature stamp is not unusual. Some elderly people for example those with Parkinson's have these Signature stamps. In fact it is legal for a notary (if handicapped) to have a and use a signature stamp.

Reply by PAW on 7/6/07 7:53am
Msg #198683

>>> ... disallow the rubber stamp. The signer makes a mark. <<<

Florida considers the 'rubber stamp' to be the signer's mark. Wouldn't that hold true as well in California, or does the Civil Code specifically state that a signature facsimile stamp cannot be used?

For reference, the following is reprinted from the May 1999 "Notary E-Mail E-ducation" newsletter, published by the Executive Office of the Governor - Notary Section:


NOTARIZING A SIGNATURE MADE BY A FACSIMILE SIGNATURE STAMP

Can a person requesting a notarization sign the document using a rubber stamp bearing his signature? YES.

The law is very broad when it comes to the definition of a signature. Almost any mark or method is allowed as long as the signer declares that to be his/her authorized signature. For example, a legal signature may be made by a mark, a rubber stamp, or another person who is directed by the signer to sign his/her name.

When notarizing in these circumstances, you should take every precaution to protect the integrity of the document, the signer, and yourself. The signer must physically appear before you to take the oath or make the acknowledgment, produce adequate identification, and "sign" the document in your presence. As the Notary, you must ensure the signer's willingness and mental capacity to execute the document, perform the notarial act, and complete the notarial certificate. We also recommend that two unbiased witnesses be present for the signing of the document and that you alter the notarial certificate language to reflect the special circumstances of the signing. Additionally, if you keep a journal or recordbook of notarial acts, you should make notes about this unusual notarization.

Florida law now provides specific instructions for notarizing for a person who signs by mark or for a person with a disability who directs the Notary or another person to sign for him/her. The Governor's Notary Section has printed instructions for notarizing in these situations. We can fax or mail these instructions to you if you will e-mail your request and include your name and fax number or address.

Reply by Joe Ewing on 7/6/07 12:38pm
Msg #198720

GOVERNMENT CODE SECTION 27201-27211


(b) (1) Each instrument, paper, or notice shall contain an
original signature or signatures, except as otherwise provided by
law, or be a certified copy of the original.
(2) A facsimile signature shall be accepted on a lien recorded by
a governmental agency when that facsimile signature has been
officially adopted by that agency. The lien shall have noted on its
face a statement to that effect. A copy of the agency's resolution
or action adopting the signature for facsimile transmission purposes
or a certified copy of the agency's adopted signature shall be
provided to the county recorder when the signature is officially
adopted by the agency, or at the beginning of each calendar year.

NEW BILL (NOT LAW)

Date of Hearing: March 27, 2007

ASSEMBLY COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY
Dave Jones, Chair
AB 18 (Blakeslee) - As Amended: March 19, 2007

PROPOSED CONSENT

SUBJECT : DISABLED PERSONS: SIGNATURE STAMPS

KEY ISSUE : SHOULD A DISABLED PERSON, WHO IS UNABLE TO SIGN HIS
OR HER NAME, BE PERMITTED TO USE A SIGNATURE STAMP TO SIGN
DOCUMENTS WHENEVER A SIGNATURE IS LEGALLY REQUIRED?

SYNOPSIS

This non-controversial bill establishes the Warren Mattingly
Signature Stamp Act, allowing a disabled person, who is unable
to write, to use a signature stamp to sign a document whenever a
signature is required by law. According to the author, while
signature stamps are currently being used in California,
existing law is silent as to who may use a signature stamp,
under what conditions, and for what purposes. The author
explains that this lack of clarity results in confusion and
unresolved liability issues. According to supporters, the
California Association of Clerks and Election Officials, this
bill, "will provide voters with disabilities who are unable to
write their names with a much needed alternative." This bill
has no known opposition.


EXISTING LAW :

1)Allows a mark to be affixed as a signature, for a person who
cannot write, as long as it is witnessed and signed by the
witness to the mark. (Civil Code Section 14; Code of Civil
Procedure Section 17; Corporations Code Section 17; Elections
Code Section 354.5; Financial Code Section 17; Fish and Game
Code Section 81; Government Code Section 16; Harbors and
Navigation Code Section 18; Health and Safety Code Section 18;
Insurance Code Section 18; Labor Code Section 17; Military and
Veterans Code Section 17; Penal Code Section 7; Public
Resources Code Section 17; Public Utilities Code Section 16;
Revenue and Taxation Code Section 18; Streets and Highway Code
Section 18; Unemployment Insurance Code Section 17; Vehicle
Code Section 17; Water Code Section 17; Welfare and
Institutions Code Section 17.)

2)Requires that states have voting places accessible to
individuals with disabilities in a way that provides the same
opportunity for access and participation, including privacy
and independence, which is enjoyed by voters without
disabilities. (42 U.S.C. 15301 et seq.)

Reply by PAW on 7/6/07 1:01pm
Msg #198724

So, do you agree ...

... that the use of a facsimile signature stamp would be considered the same as the signer making a mark? Nothing you provided says otherwise. Actually, there is a statement, "According to the author, while signature stamps are currently being used in California, existing law is silent as to who may use a signature stamp, under what conditions, and for what purposes." So, what is the CA legal definition of a "mark"? Must the mark be made with a writing instrument and the signers own hands? As you pointed out, existing law simply states, "[a]llows a mark to be affixed as a signature...". It doesn't specify how the mark is to be affixed, just that it is affixed nor what constitutes a mark.

Reply by Joe Ewing on 7/6/07 2:37pm
Msg #198738

Re: So, do you agree ...

Like a lot of "notary Law" there is quite a bit that is left to the notary to decide. Also called the gray area. This would be regarding things like less not more and "competency". It's a judgment call that's got the potential to be Judged. Since the Signature stamp has to get passed the County Recorder it's probably best if the California notary sticks to the existing code no matter how vague.

Just my opinion Paw.