Posted by Dennis D Broadbooks on 6/28/07 7:18am
Msg #197382

Feedback Requested...

...on a Notary certificate situation. Yesterday I had the unusual occasion for me of reviewing a Notary cert I completed on 06/13/2007. It was the last page of a DOT & what jumped out at me was the fact someone over the past 2 weeks had taken the liberty of adding to the verbiage I'd inserted. What this individual had done was print the words "husband & wife" after the two borrowers' names I'd written in the space provided. I know in certain states (CA being one) Notary law prohibits the capacity of the individuals signing the docs to be listed in the Notary cert. I've had numerous conversations with our MO SOS Notary Commissions division over this issue & while MO statutes are silent when it comes to this, I've been advised I'm on firm ground by refusing to include in the Notary certificate the capacity of the individual(s) siging the document. If it's pre-printed in the Notary cert, I strike it out & needless to say I never write it in when there's a blank space for the signers' names.

I've sent over a copy of this form to our MO SOS for their review & the individual there I need to speak with won't be back in the office until later today. My general question to the SOS is whether the altering of my Notary cert rises to level of action being taken either on my part or by the SOS. I've since discovered exactly who the individual was who took it upon themselves to write in the addition & their rationale was that the loan wouldn't fund without the words "husband & wife" in the Notary cert as the borrowers were listed on the 1st page of the DOT that way. That's hogwash (to put it mildly) as I've completed hundreds of DOT's where the capacity is listed on the 1st page of the DOT & I've either not entered the words "husband & wife" or struck out the pre-printed words in the Notary cert. Unless all of the DOT's I've done previously are being altered, it's a virtual certainty they've been accepted for funding & recording purposes without the capacity of the signers listed in the Notary cert.

While waiting on the "official" response from our SOS I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts/opinions of others on their perception of the seriousness of this. Perhaps to some this falls under the category of "so what", but unless I receive a response to the contrary from our SOS I'm very uncomfortable with someone tinkering with MY Notary certs.

http://www.bnsllc.com

Reply by PAW on 6/28/07 7:57am
Msg #197389

From what I've been told by two different title underwriting groups (one person being an attorney), is that "husband and wife" is not a capacity, but a statement of status, in this case, marital status. Along the same lines as widowed, divorced and single. Capacity would be their position in an organization or function where they are representing an entity or individual. Capacities include, president, CEO, trustee and attorney-in-fact.

Some states do not allow for the inclusion of a represented capacity in a notary certificate. But most states that I know of, are silent when it comes to stating status in the certificate. My take on this, and the underwriting departments were in agreement, is that we cannot verify or validate a persons status unless we have personal knowledge of it. It is a "statement" by the signer when they sign their name on the DOT/mortgage, that the status is properly reflected in the instrument (in the vesting). Since we, as notaries, do not (and usually cannot) verify or validate the status, it should not be included in the notarial certificate. The certificate is nothing more than the documentation of the act of a notary that certain functions and verifications were performed. Verification of status is typically not a function that a notary performs in taking acknowledgments or administering oaths/affirmations.

Reply by LisaWI on 6/28/07 8:20am
Msg #197395

Funny you should bring this up Dennis. This is an ongoing conversation within our network and with comps I work for. Just recently I had a company tell me she was almost 100% positive that if we didnt put the status of marriage on our certificate, it was probably added after the fact. Minnesota it has to be there in order for it to record. So, what do Minnesota SA's do is my question.
I wouldnt have a problem with this if I was protected somehow in using that verbiage. The reason I say this is because I hear all the time, "Thats the way the lender wants it" Well, great, the lender can pay legal fees then if it is an incorrect statement that they HAD to have on the certificate.

Reply by Vince/KS on 6/28/07 8:53am
Msg #197406

I wonder if the "fixer" feels they are changing the notarial language with "borrowers permission" provided under the E & O and or POA affidavit. Even so, it is my understanding that the notarial language cannot be adjusted (with or without notary's permission). Perhaps the argument is that it was an oversight to exclude it when originally prepared? Seems like "twisting" to me.

Reply by SharonMN on 6/28/07 10:29am
Msg #197423

Minnesota notary laws require notaries to put "husband and wife" in the ack if the parties are husband and wife (all acks, not just loan docs). It doesn't say you need to see proof of marriage I just ask them, "Are you husband and wife?" Personally, I think its a weird requirement.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 6/28/07 8:53am
Msg #197405

Thanks for Clarifying...

...the difference between capacity & status. I agree wholeheartedly with your statement there's no way to verify a person's status unless we have personal knowledge. The borrowers could show you their marriage certificate but that doesn't mean they didn't get a divorce yesterday.

http://www.bnsllc.com

Reply by dickb/wi on 6/28/07 1:45pm
Msg #197470

right on paul......i have had this same situation come.....

up several times recently and did some battle with the tc and/or lenders......in a long conversation wit our sos he told me that the notarial cert is the notaries testemant that what is in the notary block is TRUE......he said if you don't have personal knowledge of the fact that they are "husband and wife" or that it is "marital Property" or that they are "joint tennants" or tennants in common" or any of the multitude of other things that they put in there then you can't leave it in the notarial block and must strike it. he also said that the notarial block is the realm of the notary and only the notary can and should fill it out.....and he said where ever there is blank area to be safe draw a line so nothing can be inserted later.....my .02

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/28/07 8:11am
Msg #197392

They do it all the time. There is a very lengthy thread on 'the deli/coffee shop' started by a TC employee who 'fixes' our certs all day long, 5 days a week. The 'fixes'are definitely company-specific, generally incorrect-by-state and I'm sure each co. has their own little 'fix-fairy' tucked in a back room. Know Sylvia had an issue about 'fixing certs'. Maybe she'll chime in here as to what eventually happened. Is it wrong? Yeah. Does anybody beside us seem to care? I don't think so. Until the TCs realize that they need to pay for experience, there will always be a fix-fairy in the back room to handle the latest batch of nna csa's who 'do notaries' screwups.

Reply by Jersey_Boy on 6/28/07 8:34am
Msg #197397

I don't like it one bit... I hate to drop the F-Bomb, but in my eyes, anyone messing with a completed notary certificate is performing FRAUD.

I have a simple fix, which I have used for the last two years:

After the names of the borrowers I simply put a squiggle mark to make it impossible to fill in anything after the names that I've placed there. The squiggle looks like an oversides cursive e. If there is any additional room to "add" anything, I make sure it's crossed off.



http://www.southjerseynotary.net

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 6/28/07 8:43am
Msg #197401

Unfortunately...

...on this particular DOT there was a substantial amount of open space (there was no printed line to place the names on) under my printed names of the borrowers & that's where "husband & wife" was inserted. The inserted words stuck out like a sore thumb & would be obvious to even the casual observer they weren't printed by me. I'm with you..."I don't like it one bit".

http://www.bnsllc.com

Reply by Roger_OH on 6/28/07 8:44am
Msg #197402

I do the same - squiggle lines so nothing can be added that isn't blatantly obvious; also agree that altering of my notarized certificates by anyone is indeed a fraudulent act. We notarize exactly what is on the signature line, period; "status" is NOT a part of the signature, although capacity occasionally is (trustee, Vice-President, etc).

I do recall Sylvia having issues with extra things being added after the fact; whatever happened with that?

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 6/28/07 8:49am
Msg #197404

I Agree...

...as I also have no problem with adding the capacities of POA, trustee, corporate position, et al. That situation happens so infrequently as to almost be non-existent. However the martial status issue is raising its head quite frequently.

http://www.bnsllc.com

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/28/07 8:55am
Msg #197408

I had lots of certificates where "husband and wife" or "single man" etc were added. I even had one where the title company had added the designation "Doctor", but the one that really got my dander up was when I did a split signing. First notary had done everything correctly, only putting the person whose signature she was notarizing on her certificate. I added a loose acknowledgment for the two people whose signatures I notarized.
When the mortgage was recorded, my certificate was missing and the names of the two people I had notarized had been added to the first notary's certificate.

I traced the first notary who was in PA and let her know. She wasn't concerned!!!!! She said she knew whose signature she notarized. I said "Of course, you will have it in your notary journal" She informed me she never kept a journal!!!

I went to the court house where the mortgage was recorded, took my journal to show that the two signers were in Florida on that date and I was the one notarizing their signatures.
They agreed it was fraud, but they couldn't do anything without a police report.
So, I went to the police station to file a report, only to be told that as the fraud didn't happen here in Florida they couldn't do anything, I would need to file where the certificate was altered!

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 6/28/07 10:16am
Msg #197419

Sylvia, I wish you had filed a compaint with the Secretary of the Commonwealth against the PA notary after she told you she never kept a journal, which is a PA requirement. I know it's a sensitive thing to snitch on a fellow notary, but her nonfeasance affected you as well as all the customers she's ever served. The notary would likely be placed on probation and sent to remedial training, where - it can only be hoped - she would learn that she must keep a journal. Maybe she would also learn other things she didn't know.

The Secretary usually only learns of these notaries after something egregious occurs with an innocent customer.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/28/07 8:38am
Msg #197400

Re: Feedback Requested...I agree, Lee.

It's chasing a dream to believe anyone cares. Dennis has every right to be indignant over the tinkering, but no one cares.

Texas input:
As an aside, in loan docs marital status and capacities are inserted into the notarial cert. by attorneys. In my understanding, it would be UPL in Tx to change it...and notaries are still just ID'ing the people...they/the signiners have claimed the capacity...we do not verify it.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 6/28/07 10:07am
Msg #197417

Those fix-fairies don't understand, or maybe care, that they are changing legal certificates. If anything ever ends up in court, you can bet that changing the certificate of a public official will affect the outcome, but the punishment - if a charge is even brought against the offender - won't reflect the significance of what's been done from our point of view.

The fix-fairies and their bosses know that the chances of anything they're doing ending up in court are not significant compared to the money to be made. If I were you, Dennis, I'd be tempted to make an example of the offender, but it would be a mere drop in the bucket of what goes on and perhaps not worth your time and expense.

That's what it takes for change to occur, for every citizen to stand up on his own and do what is right, no matter the cost. That's what it takes, whether for democracy or for respect of a profession, but the cost is dear.

</soapbox>

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 6/28/07 10:28am
Msg #197422

I amend what I said. . .

Changing the certificate of a public official on a land document will usually NOT affect the outcome of a case. That becomes a separate matter.

Reply by Julie/MI on 6/28/07 8:54am
Msg #197407

Recording requirements BTDT

As you know, I was the recorder for my county and I rejected documents because the marital status was not reflected in the notary acknowledgement. Our state is not like CA, in that we are able to notarize capacity.

If the marital status was missing, the person that brought the document to the counter for recording, simply added the marital status. No harm, no fraud, no big deal. I put !the maritial status in my acknowledgements without view marriage licenses, I take folks at their word

We have to remember that mortgage transactions have been going on for hundreds of years, and now that there are mobile signings, sometimes we brain storm too much and deviate into territory that will ultimately hinder the simple task we are asked to do.

If I make a mistake in my acknowledgment, then I thank the person that fixed my boo-boo, I don't stress out over my notary block because I know I identified the person and if I made a mistake, or forgot martital status and someone adds it, there is no harm done.

Again I have been in the business since 1983, and I think many on this forum make mountains out of molehills.

Not aimed at you Dennis, I'm speaking generally.

This worry is all the brain child of the NNA and it makes me sad at how many have taken the bait.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 6/28/07 9:09am
Msg #197411

Hmmmm...

...so in your opinion this may not be a big deal at all? I'm going to investigate this to the nth degree. If that ends up being the case here in MO then I once again learned something today. I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks for the feedback, Julie.

http://www.bnsllc.com

Reply by Gerry_VT on 6/28/07 9:19am
Msg #197412

F word

A number of people have used the word "fraud" in connection with altering notary certificates. It isn't clear to me that someone who alters a document to get something that one is acutally entitled to, and would be granted anyway if the full facts were known, is fraud. It may be an offence of some kind, but I doubt it is fraud.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 6/28/07 10:09am
Msg #197418

I Haven't Used the Word Fraud...

...in any of my comments to this point, but for someone to alter the meaning of my own words by adding OR subtracting verbiage is wrong. Their intent may be as honorable as the day is long, but as a Notary I normally wouldn't know with any certainty at all the marital status of perfect strangers. It can't be proven to me in a satisfactory manner & for now I refuse to make it a part of the wording in my Notary certs. Perhaps (and I reiterate PERHAPS) I could be convinced that words in the Notary cert stating the borrowers "represented" (i.e. John Smith & Jane Smith who represented themselves to me to be husband & wife) to me their marital status is acceptable, but I'd have to think about that some more & run it by our SOS before I'd start employing it as an option.

http://www.bnsllc.com

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 6/28/07 9:51am
Msg #197413

I Just Received a Reply...

...& the answer is instructive, but NOT definitive. Our SOS is saying the individual should not have made the alteration to my Notary certificate & that I should advise them not to do it in the future. However they're also saying if I want to do anything about it that I'll need to contact whoever regulates the title company. Our MO SOS will NOT do a thing as it doesn't fall under their legal jurisdiction. They also said I should do as Jersey Boy does & that is to make it impossible for anyone to add anything to what I've written into the Notary certificate. With this Notary cert that would almost be impossible. One DOES learn something new each & every day!

http://www.bnsllc.com

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/29/07 1:12am
Msg #197661

Re: I Just Received a Reply...

Dennis, I generally draw a line from the end of the letter of the last name entered to the end of the margin, and if there is a big blank space, I draw another line all the way across to the next typed word. It doesn't make it unquestionably impossible to alter, but my hope is that an attempted alteration would stand out like a sore thumb.

I think this issue is at the heart of what a notarization is supposed to mean. I don't know about other states, but in CA, to become a notary we take an oath that applies every time we put our signature to a certificate. If that is "no big deal", why do we bother notarizing at all?! What does a notarization really mean, if some third party can just go change it at their whim? So I applaud what you are trying to do.

Also, whether we call it a capacity or status, unless we've seen proof, as defined by our individual states (as we do with a person's identity), how can we put our name to that, unless, as you said, the language qualifies it. (Something like "represented to me..." or what ever it was you said.)

Obviously, this is not an easy issue to tackle and we may never eliminate tampering with our certificates, but it can only get worse if we let ourselvesd get jade with time. So, good for you for raising the issue!!

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/28/07 10:04am
Msg #197415

Re: Recording requirements BTDT - thanks Julie. n/m

Reply by Joe Ewing on 6/28/07 11:50am
Msg #197432

FORGERY n/m