Posted by Renee on 6/30/07 10:58pm
Msg #197941

Lenders sending borrowers to find notary

Hi,

I am wondering if any of you who do general public signings are noticing how many lenders are sending their borrowers out to find their own notary.

In the past month I have had several contacts from persons who need to have something notarized and upon arrival, find out that it is lending documents (ie, deed of trust, limited power of attorney, occupancy agreements, signature/name affidavit, marital status, borrowers affidavit, etc.) Included is generally a form asking for specifics on the notary.

Given that we as signing agents, I thought that general notaries were not supposed to handle this type of signing. Am I incorrect?

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/30/07 11:10pm
Msg #197944

A notary by any other name is still a notary; a document is a document; a notarization is properly identifying the signer, watch 'em sign & complete the Ack or Jurat & stamp/sign. That's absolutely ALL you do. ID, watch 'em sign, stamp. No discussion, no explanation of what the doc is. No questions/no answers. No problem. Only thing I'd question and possibly have a problem with is the general form asking for specifics on the notary. My 'specifics' are on my stamp--and if that isn't good enough for whoever sent these poor people, well, maybe whoever sent 'em out ought to hire a qualified NSA, huh?

Reply by JK/TX on 7/1/07 12:01am
Msg #197953

Well put Lee..... and I fear you will see much more of this in the future. With signing services “popping up” all over and NSA's alike, it has created a mess out of alot of loan pkgs. The newbie SS wants to low-ball to create a client base and in turn hire newbie low-ball NSA'S, and both in turn speak from themselves.(hence all the fax back/etc) It may be coming to a point that the lender or title co think they have a greater chance (or just as good of chance) of getting a pkg returned error free by letting the borrower find their own notary which could make a NSA a thing of the past. And if you think about it, how were loan pkgs/closing docs handled 10 years ago?

The thing that may be holding the ss/nsa together is emailed docs, the biggest PITA about an assignment.

How do you find a “qualified NSA” when most all SS claim their NSA's are qualified... what makes a qualified NSA? 10 to 20 questions ? We know better.........

Reply by Lee/AR on 7/1/07 10:23am
Msg #197978

Funny you should ask, JK/TX...

Because 10 years ago I did my first edoc package...with a great deal of fear (of the unknown). And, you know what? I was paid $80 to do the loan AND another $80 to do the edocs. That's what they did back in the dinosaur-days. They just doubled your fee (or more) IF you had a laser printer & would/could do edocs. It was about an 1 1/2 RT; gas was cheaper & the printers were slower; nor did I have high-speed internet, but still.... $80 for edocs. If they could afford it then, they still can.

Reply by JK/TX on 7/1/07 11:24am
Msg #197983

Re: Funny you should ask, Hmmmm.....

$80 for edocs. The truth in that fee is that you were offering them convenience that was worth every penny to them. Now, it seems to be expected at little to no charge, as if they are adding convenience for us. ;o)

Reply by Lee/AR on 7/1/07 6:50am
Msg #197964

Re-thinking my answer above...

On the 'notary info form'...I might fill it out, depending upon the info it wants, but I'd be more inclined to just give the people one of my brochures to send back with their package. Free marketing--great idea! It is also higly doubtful that I would 'go to them'. Tho' others have said they've had no problem getting a reasonable travel fee, so far, requests I've received have been just too far away for me to even consider it.

Reply by Renee on 7/1/07 10:00am
Msg #197976

Re: Re-thinking my answer above...

I guess I had no problem with the information form. I just felt unaccustomed to doing this without the benefit of having done the entire package. I was uncomfortable because I was thinking that I might be held responsible for all the rest of the documents. I don't see how that is possible, I think I just needed this cleared up and wondered if other SA's were experiencing this.

Reply by ZeeCA on 7/1/07 10:32am
Msg #197979

Re: Re-thinking my answer above...

were you notarizing this form? if not, why then would or should it be of concern? it sounds like you were there as a "general notary" meaning all you are doing is notarizing signatures and stamping. .. nothing else....or did they pay 'extra' for the form to carried out by a notary?

Reply by John_NorCal on 7/1/07 12:04pm
Msg #197988

Personally I have found this to be a better source of

revenue. In most cases my notary fees alone are usually more than what a SS offers. And like Lee says, "a notarization is a notarization and a document is a document" no matter where the document originates from.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/1/07 12:49pm
Msg #197993

Re: Personally I have found this to be a better source of

In Texas that will also be my experience, John. I look forward to it.

10-20 notarizations, $60 - $100 and cash on the spot, no travel (unless I want it), no edocs, no responsibility for getting the docs back.

Reply by LJ on 7/1/07 7:50am
Msg #197966

Just last week I had a couple call who lives just 1 street from my house. I knew them, but not very well. They took out a line of credit and needed the doc's notarized. I was amazed. He was told to find his own notary. He got online and found me. I was glad to do it for them. He was also told he had 5 days to get the doc's back. This may be the way of the future. Who knows. It may be time to re-evaluate my advertising efforts. I currently don't advertise in the yellow pages or newspapers. It may be time to do that.

Reply by Julie/MI on 7/1/07 8:24am
Msg #197968

Yes, you are incorrect.

Signing Agent is just a term devised a few years ago. It just means the notary public that was present at the closing. ANY notary public may notarize signatures on loan documents. No state in the union has specific laws for signing agents.

Some lenders do have the mortgagor find their own notary.

Even a the lowly "general notary" can notarized mortgage docs, because we are all just general notaries.

Reply by Renee on 7/1/07 9:51am
Msg #197973

Thank you for correcting my attitude. I did not really mean to indicate that any notary is lowly. I guess that with the size of the books we study, the expectations that seem to be out there for signing agents, the background screening that seems to be required, and the certification testing, I guess I just slid to another realm. Please forgive what appears to be a slight.

You are correct. We are all general notaries first.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 7/1/07 1:05pm
Msg #198002

Julie/MI is wrong.

"Signing Agent .... just means the notary public that was present at the closing." is an absurd statement. Notary Signing Agents are much more than Notaries Public. Both are professionals. Both notarize signatures on documents, possibly including loan documents. Notary Signing Agents add considerable value to the signing process. We have to know our notary laws / rules inside and out, as every Notary Public should, of course, but we NSAs must also know the common loan documents backwards and forwards. As has been mentioned elsewhere in this Thread, we cannot give legal advice nor financial advice. The well-trained NSA, however, will spot errors or omissions in the documents (non-obligated spouse's name not on the legals, for example), and be able to point out the answers to questions that the borrower(s) may have. Notary Signing Agents typically take responsibility for dropping off the completed documents, just as one more example.

Do not confuse the two simple acts of signer identification and signature notarization (by a Notary Public) with the full review of the documents prior to the appointment AND the signer identification AND the document description AND the pointing out of features (the interest rate is fixed / the rate is variable) AND the pointing to answers AND the notarization (by a Notary Signing Agent). To propagate such confusion displays ignorance and cheapens the credentials of the REAL Notary Signing Agent.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 7/1/07 1:34pm
Msg #198008

Actually Julie is right on the money....

Any distinction between a Notary Signing Agent and a Notary Public is only in the mind of the Notary Signing Agent. There is no legal distinction and any Notary Public can notarize any document package and if they care to travel and get travel fees they can do that. Not trying to incite a riot but that is all there is and there is nothing more. I know that people try to make more of their jobs than needs be but that still is not what a Notary does and If you are not a comissioned Notary Public you can call yourself anything you want but you still can't complete a documentation package requiring notarization.

Reply by WDMD on 7/1/07 2:24pm
Msg #198011

Re: Actually Julie is right on the money....

Charles Ca said:

"There is no legal distinction and any Notary Public can notarize any document package and if they care to travel and get travel fees they can do that. "

Not true in Maryland in regards to notarizing loan packages. Most cases require a title producers license.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 7/1/07 6:00pm
Msg #198025

You are right WDMD Maryland is different as are a few others

however a notary is still a Notary Public with the rights and responsibilities as defined by their States. A Title Producer is another licensed activity with its own rights and responsibilities as are those states where attorneys (licensed also) do the closingswith their own rights and responsibilities. A notary signing agent has no standing in any State I know of.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/1/07 9:27pm
Msg #198041

Re: You are right WDMD Maryland is different as are a few others

As far as official standing, I agree with you, Charles, but I think Ernest_CT has a point, also. If we consider that the average doc package has about 100 pages, maybe only five, on average will require notarizing. Your average notary doesn't know a 1003 from a HUD and wouldn't have a clue as to how to find out what the contract interest rate is or if there is a ppp. In purely practical terms, having that knowledge allows the NSA to add some value to the process, even though it is not in an officially recognized capacity (unless we want to buy into the NNA propaganda "stuff"....) ;>

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/1/07 8:30am
Msg #197970

Couple of years ago I used to get a lot of calls from borrowers who were told to find their own notary - they were usually Wells Fargo loans. All you do in a case like that is you just have them sign the docs that need notarizing and you notarize their signature on those docs. The rest of the docs aren't your concern. You can tell the borrower that you do loan docs for a living and if they want to pay you a signing agent fee then you will be happy to go through the package with them to make sure all are signed correct.

Any notary can notarize signatures in a loan package.

Reply by TRG_wy on 7/1/07 8:39am
Msg #197972

I have seen this too and actually only did one.

I have however been called upon to "correct" and re-sign at least five packages where the notary they found totally messed the package up. Examples were: signing incorrectly, signing in the wrong places, no dates, bad initials...

The average notary found at the pawn shop, UPS Store or just about anywhere else does not have the knowledge or expertise to do loan docs. I have found that they don't do many true legal types of notarizations. I have also closed many many loans for notaries and they were impressed.

I can understand attempts at times to eliminate the SS to cut costs, but I think the TC or LO would be better served in the long run by finding a qualified signing agent by doing a little do dillegence on their own. This site and a few others are a good starting point.

Reply by Renee on 7/1/07 10:11am
Msg #197977

I am finding the same as you said. I am concerned that given an SA's expectations that a notary that is not familiar with the documents, or rather have not gone thru the training that mistakes have a high chance of happening. However, as someone has pointed out, I guess that is a chance that a lender is willing to take. A notary is there to identify and notarize. No checks or questions. Maybe this will be the way of the future.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/1/07 11:46am
Msg #197984

Renee
If a borrower finds his or her own notary, then they are just getting a notary and the notary does not have to be familiar with the docs, as they are not acting as a loan signing agent. The notary still has to identify the signer and notarize the signature just as in any regular notarization.
I sometimes think that signing agents (especially new ones) over complicate the whole process. Legally we can only identify the docs to the signer - this is the Note, and point out the interest rate on the note etc, can't explain anything about the note itself, just point out the key points, same as all the other docs. When the company sends the docs to the borrower and tells them to find their own notary, it is up to the borrower to read the docs thoroughly and know what they are signing. When borrowers come to me with docs that have been sent to them and told to find their own notary, I do not go over the docs with them, I just have them sign the docs that need their signature notarized and any other docs are not my concern (unless they want to pay me the signing agent fee).

I don't know about it being the way of the future per se. Some lenders have been doing this for years.

Reply by Kim_CA on 7/1/07 11:56am
Msg #197986

Hi Renee,

As stated above, any notary can notarize just about any document. Whenever someone calls me for general notary work, I always ask them what needs to be notarized. I've had several tell me that they are signing loan documents and were instructed to find their own notary. I use it as a way of selling my experience as a signing agent. Some aren't comfortable with signing docs by themselves and want to pay to have me there as they sign and make sure everything is done right before docs are sent back, others just want me to notarize certain docs only. Either way is fine with me as I'm paid right then. Most don't have any problem paying a travel fee in addition to notarization fees to have the work done. I've even had some tell me that they'll be reimbursed by their lender for the fee.

I've done several loan signings through a signing service where Morgan Stanley is the lender. The borrowers are sent the package and the first page of the docs state that they can go to any UPS Store to have the docs notarized for free. They just have to give the UPS Store notary a voucher which is included in their docs. I don't know how many Morgan Stanley borrowers actually go to the UPS Store, I guess I'm getting the ones in my area who'd rather have a notary come to them.

Regarding the general form asking for notary specifics, use it to market directly to the entity asking for the info.

Take care,
Kim

www.mckendellmobilenotary.com

Reply by ZeeCA on 7/1/07 1:06pm
Msg #198003

those that have done this, do you ask that they have all

the docs they want notarized pulled out? or do you go thru the package?

I know what I would do, just curious what you have done/do

thx

Reply by Ernest__CT on 7/1/07 1:27pm
Msg #198007

There's a fine line between what is required ...

... is what is nice to do for a neighbor AND a word-of-mouth advertiser.

I always ask the signer / borrower whether they want me to "just" notarize their signatures on the docs they present to me or they would like me to go over their package with them. (Keeping in mind, of course, that I cannot and will not give legal advice!) For a quick (and I stress, QUICK!) review, I'm happy to do it at no charge. I find that going the extra mile, in addition to be The Right Thing To Do, makes the borrower grateful and happy to recommend my services for anyone's Notary Public needs.

For a full review (in addition to the notarizations) I charge for my time as a Notary Signing Agent.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/1/07 4:32pm
Msg #198020

Re: those that have done this, do you ask that they have all

The few times I've done this, the docs to be notarized were flagged by the lender so the borrower doesn't have to pull them out. As a courtesy, and with the borrower's permission, I skimmed through the package to make sure the lender didn't miss a flag. It doesn't cost me more than a minute or two to take a quick look.

A notary unfamiliar with loan packages probably wouldn't do that, but I have one client who sends docs to borrower with everything flagged and almost always misses something.

Reply by Tina_MA on 7/1/07 2:57pm
Msg #198014

>>>I am wondering if any of you who do general public signings are noticing how many lenders are sending their borrowers out to find their own notary.

In the past month I have had several contacts from persons who need to have something notarized and upon arrival, find out that it is lending documents (ie, deed of trust, limited power of attorney, occupancy agreements, signature/name affidavit, marital status, borrowers affidavit, etc.) Included is generally a form asking for specifics on the notary.

Given that we as signing agents, I thought that general notaries were not supposed to handle this type of signing. Am I incorrect?<<<



In Massachusetts, or any other attorney state, that is correct.

Whenever I receive a call for notarization, I always ask what it is that they need notarized.

If they tell me their loan docs, I tell them that I can only do that under the supervision of an attorney, and what the fee will be for that and what the fee includes (i.e. going over the docs with them).

Reply by NCLisa on 7/1/07 3:32pm
Msg #198017

The reason you fill the form out is if their is an error with your notarization the office will be able to contact you and have you correct it.

As a RE Paralegal I used to prepare 3 or 4 "mailaway" packages a day, they went to the borrower and they needed to find a notary. I had the notary fill out a portion of the cover letter with their name, address, contact info and notary exp. date. Before I started doing that, I'd have illegible notary stamps, etc that were not recordable. I had to do a lot if digging to find the notary so that they could correct their errors. Lots of notaries out there have no idea what is required on recordable docs.

Reply by flexono on 7/1/07 6:45pm
Msg #198028

Message Deleted

This message has been deleted by a forum moderator.

Reason: Advertising

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/1/07 8:55pm
Msg #198037

JLissem welcome back.

Why don't you tell us that link says so no one has to join the Ning Group to read what you are sharing on *NotaryRotary*.

Thanks.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/2/07 6:13am
Msg #198062

Goodness James H. Lissemore...

I thought you had just stopped posting but apparently you deleted your paid profile. Yet, even as much as you disliked this board and took that drastic measure still come back to promote your own site under a free membership with "flexono" as your handle?

I thought it was ashame that you left use, actually. With your history and background, I had you pegged for a guy with integrity and honor.

Now I see you may believe the rest of us are a cut below you and we are too dull to realize that "flexono" is you.

This is me going "Harumph." while I go in to fix mine and the sleeping doglets' breakfast.

On the menu:

Bacon and cottage cheese, but I have
other low carb delights...or if you prefer
to have your carbs, we have
Pedigree - Chicken and rice dinner in a can.

Name yer poison, the kitchen's open.

Reply by sue_pa on 7/2/07 7:33am
Msg #198066

Re: Goodness James H. Lissemore...

although he used to state he wasn't a signing service he also stated on his site that he obtained the clients, did the marketing & billing and took a cut of the fee for these services. Sure sounded like a signing service to me. I thought services weren't allowed to be listed in the members area but I know of at least one more that's still there.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/2/07 7:57am
Msg #198073

Re: Goodness James H. Lissemore...thanks, sue

Now I see why he was so pro-something-that-we-don't-need-to-rehash here.

All that went right over my head. And I thought I was so good at detecting bullshifting liars.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/1/07 9:39pm
Msg #198042

I seem to be seeing lots more of these types of forms lately. I have no problem filling out most of the information, except for my address. I work out of my home and I figure that is not information that I need to circulate any more than it already is. Instead of my address, I normally just put down the county where my commission is filed and complete the rest. Is there a good reason I should include my address, as well? (Most of the time, the form is being requested by the receiver of the document, not my client.)

Reply by Julie/MI on 7/1/07 8:00pm
Msg #198033

TPL for MD, whoppdeedo!!! Ernest I still don't agree

So MD needs a TPL, what did it do for them and for the public? Does an MD notary with a TPL get more money than a Michigan notary that doesn't even have to use a stamp? Is the borrowing public "safer and protected" with a "licensed" notary? Are collection efforts easier in MD? heck no!!!!

Ernest, where do you think the first mobile notaries were recruited from? Many came from ads in the newspaper and recruited from Mail Boxes. Etc. and other postal annex locations, because they had the Notary, the fax machine and the shipping capacity. Those initial overnighted loan packages are no different then the ones today and they were not notaries with any special training.

So, I don't agree, nor no matter how highly we think of ourselves a NSA is still a notary.

Ernest, dear, you have fallen hook, line and sinker for the NNA's marketing. But don't worry, you are not alone. If I had not been in the title industry previously, I may have fallen too.

Reply by WDMD on 7/2/07 5:34am
Msg #198061

Re: TPL for MD, whoppdeedo!!! Ernest I still don't agree

TPL for MD, whoppdeedo!!! Ernest I still don't agree
Posted by Julie/MI on 7/1/07 8:00pm

"So MD needs a TPL, what did it do for them and for the public? Does an MD notary with a TPL get more money than a Michigan notary that doesn't even have to use a stamp? Is the borrowing public "safer and protected" with a "licensed" notary? Are collection efforts easier in MD? heck no!!!!"


I don't make the laws, just follow them. As for your earlier statement that ANY (your emphasis) notary can notarize any loan documents, it just is not true (legally) in Maryland in most cases.

Reply by sue_pa on 7/2/07 8:23am
Msg #198076

Re: TPL for MD, whoppdeedo!!! Ernest I still don't agree

question about this referring back to the original thread. If someone calls you for 'regular' notary work and hands you a Mortgage, owners affidavit, E&O, Occupancy Affidavit, etc., can you notarize them? As a 'signing agent' you know what they are but does someone handing you a few documents count as a 'closing'.


By the way, I had another request last week to cross into MD - they needed 'just a notary'. I no longer explain that I can't cross the line and that I don't have TPL because these companies that are asking just don't care. I think part of the problem is the way the listing sites are set up - if someone does a mileage search and you are near a state line, everyone on both sides show up and I guess some of these schedulers assume since you show up means you can travel across the line.

Reply by Lee/AR on 7/2/07 8:38am
Msg #198083

I don't think so, Sue. It's deliberate.

My zip search will also show MO and we can't go back & forth across the state lines, but nobody ever calls me for MO signings. Sounds like they're looking for a dumb one to avoid the TPL-compliant Notary fees.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 7/2/07 1:51pm
Msg #198180

Re: TPL for MD, whoppdeedo!!! Ernest I still don't agree

I don't know about Maryland, but I asked Kathy Watters of the Vermont SOS's office a similar question about Vermont, which might or might not be an attorney state, depending on who you ask. She indicated it was OK to notarize documents drawn up by the landowners themselves, but "here is a big difference between involving a bank in a large loan transaction and financing the loan yourself."