Posted by CaliNotary on 6/6/07 3:34am
Msg #193819

Strange fee situation

What is the logic behind a company who is willing to pay $75 for a local signing with overnight docs, yet only is willing to pay $125 for a double signing with email docs? Does it really need to be argued that signing an extra loan plus the printing of 4 copies of loan documents is worth more than $50?

Reply by Barb/MO on 6/6/07 6:40am
Msg #193828

Recently had a similar situation

In December a highly-regarded signing service met my fee of $XXX for a 1st refi. But just a few weeks ago would go only $20 more than that for a 1st and 2nd to be signed at borrowers' local McDonald's a few miles outside of my 20-mile service area (mileage would have been only an additional $5). They wouldn't budge on the fee.

Sure hope that's not a trend.

Reply by Barb/MO on 6/6/07 6:42am
Msg #193829

Both involved edocs, I should add n/m

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/6/07 6:46am
Msg #193830

Guess it's another situation where we just have to keep saying "No" 'til they get it. But, to answer the question: Logic is not involved.

Reply by John_NorCal on 6/6/07 8:59am
Msg #193842

Probably the same logic for a company that will pay $50.00 for overnight docs and $90.00 for e-docs, they presumably add $10.00 if it's a double. I had an ongoing email go around with this jack ass named Dave. His words were, "Yeah I'm lining my pockets! So what! It doesn't take much effort from a notary when all they have to do is take a 6 hours class."
That just shows the disrespect some of these SS have towards signing agents and on the flip side it shows the lack of self respect of these SA's who will work under those terms.
Lesson to be learned - Just say no! (Ask Nancy!)

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/6/07 9:51am
Msg #193855

Not necessarily. Frequently a 2nd loan will only increase...

your time by about 10%. Usually quick HELOC with no addiitonal
junk dox (where a large part of notarization time is devoted. )
Your travel time and expense is the same and you only
need to go through the ID drill once.
Have discussed the e-doc cost issue .
I am assuming that dox are sent well prior to closing
and that it is a reasonably sized pkg

Reply by Dorothy Matsel on 6/6/07 10:00am
Msg #193858

Big to differ

My experience at least 90% of the time, is the second only takes less time because you don't have to explain what the docs are but one time. Many of the HELOC's I've done are at least 75% as large as the 1st and still have most of the same junk docs. Including most of the time, the same ID paperwork (and sometimes it's 3 times in the same package -- 2 for the lender, one for the title company).

By your calculations, if the first loan takes 40 minutes, the second one takes 4!!! If what you say is true, guess I'll be considering moving to IL because it is not this way in MI (and I won't even tackle the TX issue, I'm sure Brenda would not agree on the 10% figure). My experience is that even with smaller HELOC packages, it still takes about 50% more time, i.e. 40 minutes for a first and about 20 for a second.

Reply by janCA on 6/6/07 10:48am
Msg #193875

Re:Beg to differ

I agree, Dorothy, most HELOCS I encounter are as large as the first set of docs and some have been larger. These signings always take 1 and 1/2 hours to 2 hours and the title docs are always included in both sets.

Reply by CaliNotary on 6/6/07 10:54am
Msg #193876

Re: Not necessarily. Frequently a 2nd loan will only increas

"Have discussed the e-doc cost issue .
I am assuming that dox are sent well prior to closing
and that it is a reasonably sized pkg"

And what if docs aren't sent well prior to closing and it's not a reasonably sized package? Are you then going to call the hiring entity and renegotiate for more money before you do the signing? Those are pretty dangerous assumptions to make about edocs.

And I've done plenty of second loans that aren't just a "quick HELOC". No, they don't necessarily make the signing take twice as long, but they sure don't only increase my signing time by 10%.

You shouldn't assume the best possible case scenario when quoting rates, you should at best assume the average scenario. And if we come out a little ahead in the deal, so be it, it's a nice change of pace from having to eat costs and time to make up for somebody else's screwups.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/6/07 11:15am
Msg #193880

Re: Not necessarily. Frequently a 2nd loan will only increase...

Bob, do you think it is possible that IL's packages are really small? Sometimes your perspective is really different than lots of other states.

The more I read your posts the more I wonder if this isn't the case. A purchase and a piggy back in my neck of the woods can be printing 500-700 pages and two CIPs, blah, blah, blah. Huge in other words.

When I hear piggyback, I think almost for sure two subprime sized packages. The second is just as big as the first. I realize you are using 10% as the overall time / prep but I think your 10% is pretty much off for Texas.

Reply by Barb/MO on 6/6/07 11:19am
Msg #193881

Additional 10% in time? Interesting statistic.

Due to lack of experience, I’m not much in a position to argue too strenuously. However, for the one 1st and 2nd I did, there were about 25% fewer docs in the 2nd (based on my memory) and the same number of notarizations, four (based on my journal entries).

My fee structure is to charge 40% more for the second, which I believe takes into account the one trip and ID, as well as the additional docs to print, notarize and triple check, as well as the additional exposure to risk and complications.

Further, in the posts I have read over the past eight months, it seems others' fees are in line with mine, taking into account their levels of experience and cost of living.

In the experience I shared in my earlier post above, I was offered only 12% more to do a 1st and 2nd over what the same SS paid me to do a 1st only, just five months prior. (I turned down the assignment, by the way.)

Do you mind sharing your typical fee for a 1st only and a 1st and 2nd, or at least the additional fee and/or the percentage increase of the latter over the former?

Reply by Sharon Taylor on 6/6/07 12:14pm
Msg #193892

Nearly as many docs, and nearly as much time!

1st and 2nd closings in my experience are well worth a second edocs fee and 1/2 the regular closing fee. There are only a few less docs in the 2nd package, usually, and the only reason the signing goes a bit quicker is that you've already described most of the documents in the 1st package to the borrowers. However, you still have to describe the basic terms and conditions, HUD, etc., to the borrowers on the 2nd package to be sure they know what they're getting there too. As someone else posted, I allow at least 1-1/2 hours for a 1st and 2nd, whereas I allow 1 hour for a single refi.
Some are quicker, some are slower, and you have to average your time and expenses since you have no way of knowing in advance which type you're going to get. The ones that are quicker with fewer docs to print make up for the ones that are slower with more docs to print. So it all evens out in the long run if you are charging a fair and reasonable fee based on that average.

Reply by Ndwa on 6/6/07 1:00pm
Msg #193904

Re: Nearly as many docs, and nearly as much time!

While it's not a standard, but the consensus has been 50% minimum of the 1st.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/6/07 3:09pm
Msg #193919

Just to clarify, when I said 10% increase in time, I was ...

referring to total time, including, receiving assignment,
requisite paper work, TRAVEL, processing file for shipment, etc. etc
in additon to the time actually conducting the l signing.

Note that I said


"Your travel time and expense is the same and you only
need to go through the ID drill once"

All lenders are different and you must get as much info as you
you can before agreeing to a price.
Some sub-prime have hugh 1st and 2nd and tons of junk dox.
Many of my reqular customers , have "throw in "Helocs
that just add a few minutes to the signing.
You need to set your fees based on your circumstances, including
your local competition.
I was just tying to show that there are no absolutes to my mind.
Stay fexible and , IMO, you will have more profitable business than if
you have rigid "rules".

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/7/07 12:29am
Msg #193985

Re: Just to clarify, when I said 10% increase in time, I was ...

I think this is the best explanation:

"Many of my reqular customers , have "throw in "Helocs
that just add a few minutes to the signing."

I was beginning to wonder about that, too. When giving advice to others, you may want to consider that your experience may not be the norm. I agree with Andy that 50% is more like it. I DO agree with you about staying flexible, though, and about each person considering their own local circumstances.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 6/6/07 3:18pm
Msg #193921

On Monday of This Week...

...I completed a piggyback signing where the 1st was 94 pages & the 2nd was 81 for a grand total of 175 pages of originals. The 1st took 45 minutes & the 2nd an additional 30 for a grand total of 1 hour & 15 minutes of time in front of the borrowers. Your assumption of only 10% increase in time is ludicrous & fails to take into account the "e-doc cost issue" (the true financial burden of which you also misrepresent). By the way, I'll be compensated more than fairly for this piggyback assignment & by a signing service no less. One of the very few I'll do business with today.

http://www.bnsllc.com

Reply by LJ on 6/6/07 5:37pm
Msg #193933

Re: On Monday of This Week...

Reminder: To save yourself a lot of time - go over the numbers of BOTH loans before anyone signs anything. Learned the hard way meaning that we got through the 1st with no problems. Started the 2nd and it was all wrong. Signing halted. 45 minutes wasted.
I only did this 1 time. lol

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/6/07 9:26pm
Msg #193954

Re: On Monday of This Week...for someone who

doesn't get that many piggybacks...good advice...great tip. Thanks...I will do just that.

Reply by MelissaCT on 6/8/07 10:44pm
Msg #194306

There's a local TC that doesn't charge their client extra

for a 2nd loan, so they also expect the notary to provide the same "discount". The difference that they don't realize (or maybe they do) is that while they don't have to perform a 2nd title search or obtain a 2nd title policy, etc...the notary does have to do double the work in signing/notarizing the same documents a second time.