Posted by Ernest__CT on 6/15/07 6:51am
Msg #195295
Thumbprints in journals?
Post 195233, below, brought this question to mind.
CT does not require a journal thumbprint, so I've never taken one. (I do have an inkless "ink", just in case I ever want to take a print.) In the states that do not *require* a thumb/finger print, do any Notaries / Notary Signing Agents take prints in their journals as a matter of course?
I've never had real doubts about the identity of the person whose signature I've been asked to notarize. In the cases of the person having no identification, there has nearly always been someone who knew both the signer and me (as required by CT law). There have been a few cases where I have refused over the phone to meet with the person because of hesitation about ID.
| Reply by jojo_MN on 6/15/07 7:31am
Msg #195304
I always thumbprint even though it's not required in MN, IA, or WI. The notary should never have any doubts as to the identiy of the signer, or he/she should not notarize.
Whenever I'm asked why I thumbprint, the customer is more than happy to comply. It not only protects them, but it protects us (the notaries). Ask Korey H. --he's a perfect example as to the benefits of thumb printing.
| Reply by Vince/KS on 6/15/07 8:18am
Msg #195315
Re: Thumbprints in journals? Yes
Have had some complain a bit about it, but not yet had anyone refuse to print.
| Reply by TRG_wy on 6/15/07 8:30am
Msg #195317
Re: Thumbprints in journals? Yes
Journals are not required in WY either, but I have always used one. It is easier today than a few years ago because most people are aware of ID theft and real estate frauds. I don't have to give a detailed reason. I have never had anyone refuse, if they do that would in itself raise suspicion. - Now days they are more than happy to provide it.
| Reply by Barb/MO on 6/15/07 9:28am
Msg #195325
Thumbprints, yes, even though not required in MO n/m
| Reply by BetsyMI on 6/15/07 9:43am
Msg #195326
I used to do it....
......until a title company asked me to stop. Apparently one of their customers 'complained' when they asked her how the signing went. Most of my business was coming from that company so I agreed.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/15/07 11:41am
Msg #195345
Florida does not authorize notaries to take finger/thumb prints, so I never took them as a matter of course.
| Reply by Julie/MI on 6/15/07 12:05pm
Msg #195350
If a notary requested my fingerprints when they are not required, I would find another notary.
While I'm sure the INTENT on the part of the notary is to CYA or to prevent identity theft, it's not up to the notary to make up their own policy.
NNA has created doomsday senarios for the extra precautions, simply because the NNA is trying to be needed. They don't think the legistatures of the states can function without their input. Their senarios lobbied to our lawmakekers will in turn make money for the NNA, by the purchase of their products.
A notary should not take laws from other states and enact them in their own state. I think the one that really gets me, is embossing all the pages, not just the notarial page, for the protection of the document. Again, this is the notary thinking they are more important than they really are.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/15/07 12:12pm
Msg #195351
" I think the one that really gets me, is embossing all the pages, not just the notarial page, for the protection of the document. Again, this is the notary thinking they are more important than they really are."
I wonder why a notary would think that embossing the pages protects the document?
The only reason I ever use an embosser as well as my seal is if I am notarizing on a document that is going out of the country, as some countries do not understand that a stamp seal is official and they are looking for a raised seal.
| Reply by Gerry_VT on 6/15/07 12:55pm
Msg #195357
Sylvia asked "I wonder why a notary would think that embossing the pages protects the document?" There is a book, _Notary Public Handbook: A Guide for Vermont_ by Alfred Piombino, which contains the advise (p. 36) ". . . in addition to the notarial certificate, the seal should be placed onto each page of the entire document. This makes it obvious to the document recorder and/or the recipient if any pages have been replaced." Mr. Piombino has written similar books for other states, which may or may not have the same passage in them. So notaries might have gotten this idea, directly or indirectly, from this series of books.
From stories on this board, I get the idea that a lot of people in the real estate business treat Exhibit As rather casually, for example, not including them in the package that the borrower signs, and adding them later at the title office. If people routinely add an Exhibit A that the borrower never saw, would they replace an 'incorrect' one with a 'correct' one? Is it better to take a precaution against such an event, rather that just trust the integrity of everyone in the process?
| Reply by Ernest__CT on 6/15/07 1:03pm
Msg #195359
_Notary Public Handbook: A Guide for Vermont_ by Alfred Piom
This bring several questions, chief among them: Was the NNA behind / selling / related to Mr. Piombino's book?
At least in my experience, Exhibit A is frequently blank. (I've never seen a non-blank one that HAS been notarized or REQUIRES notarization.) I assume that the title company adds the appropriate one later.
In my experience, Exhibit A is not part of the Mortgage Deed of Trust. It is considered supplimental.
| Reply by Gerry_VT on 6/15/07 1:38pm
Msg #195366
Re: _Notary Public Handbook: A Guide for Vermont_ by Alfred Piom
Piombino does not seem to have any connection to the NNA; his books are published by East Coast Publishing. I don't want to suggest that I agree with everything in his book. For example, some of the concepts he discusses in the text are not reflected in the example certificates. In some places he'll have a big long discussion of something that notaries in other states can do, but Vermont notaries can't, (like proof of execution), then he'll have one little sentence mentioning that Vermont notaries can't do it.
As for Exhibit A, I think that describes the property that secures the mortgage. For a person who has one and only one piece of property, that shouldn't be a big deal. But for the person who owns several properties in the same town, or , saints preserve us, several parcels next to each other, there's lots of opportunity to secure the mortgage with the wrong piece of property.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/15/07 1:49pm
Msg #195368
Re: _Notary Public Handbook: A Guide for Vermont_ by Alfred Piom
I did a signing one time where the Exhibit A was for property in CA. The borrower did not have property in CA, only the FL property where he lived. Someone attached the wrong Exhibit A. Of course the guy refused to sign the mortgage with the wrong Exhibit A.
Whether the borrower owns one or more properties, the Exhibit A should be attached and filled in correctly. As the 1st page of the mortgage usually references Exhibit A, it is part of the document and should be provided.
| Reply by dickb/wi on 6/15/07 1:53pm
Msg #195371
ernest....exhibit "A" is usually referd to on......
the 1st or 2nd page of a mortgage [dot]....therefor it is a part of the document and if it is missing the document is incomplete and can not be notarized....
| Reply by PAW on 6/15/07 4:35pm
Msg #195395
Legal Description (Exhibit "A") is required
The ASN in conjunction with the Florida SOS, drafted a notice about the missing attachments and riders to a mortgage, specifically addressing "Exhibit 'A'", the legal description. I urge all Florida notaries (and others) to read the memo that I subsequently drafted and use to send to title companies that continually 'forget' to include the legal description.
http://pawnotary.com/documents/MEMO%20-%20Legal%20description%20required.pdf
It must be noted, that the issue applies to ALL documents and ALL attachments, riders or memorandum that is specifically addressed and/or referenced in a document. Many affidavits, such as the Owner's Affidavit, Survey Affidavit and Title Affidavit, frequently reference the legal description of the property as "being attached", but is no where to be found in the package.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 6/15/07 6:43pm
Msg #195412
Re: Legal Description (Exhibit "A") is required
I like to see the legal attached but I know that it's not a problem if it isn't there. I feel that the bwrs wouldn't know the difference if it was Lot 1 or Lot 2 and I know that the title company is on the hook for the bucks and seeing it record properly, not me. I have a lot more faith in title companies in Tx than some do in other states.
The lender is the other one who is scr#wed if the wrong legal is attached...not the borrowers. If they don't want to make sure it's there at the get go I am not going to pull a Perry Mason on them and demand it.
Since FL has something from the sos then that pretty much ends it right there for Floridians.
| Reply by JK/TX on 6/15/07 7:46pm
Msg #195422
Re: Legal Description (Exhibit "A") is required
Ahhhh.... the Exhibit “A” “Legal Description”...ugggh. The lender/lender's attorney draws the docs. It is not the title's job to prep lender's docs and title s/not draw lender docs, which includes any exhibits, no matter what is on the closing instructions(tx). The legal description s/b attached (if referenced as an Ex. A) to all docs that references the Ex and s/b included in the loan pkg. BUT, of course, sometimes it is not, lender/atty are under a time crunch and pass the buck (so to speak). That being said, title is insuring the loan... title is insuring the Deed of Trust, title does not insure addresses, title insures legal descriptions.
After the loan has funded the docs to be recorded are checked for much more than what you may be aware of (which is mostly signatures and the notary ack.) and the legal description will be attached at that point. If it's not, which I have seen, it will be caught.... title will beat the hell out of the person that sent that doc to be recorded w/out the legal....verbally?,,, Yes....and it will be a Very long time, if at all, that employee will ever make that mistake again......... IMO..ONLY..... NO LEGAL ADVISE HERE! :o]
Do you want to notarize w/o the exhibit...... ?...... that's where the question signing agent -v- notary comes in ???......I have no answer to that one, myself?..... the borrower could always attach an exhibit A/legal descrip. themselves and send back w/the doc...... I don't send pkg's out w/out a legal description that is referenced as an exhibit or attached.
sorry.... I got too chatty !!....
| Reply by BrendaTx on 6/15/07 9:20pm
Msg #195436
Re: Legal Description (Exhibit "A") is required
A lot of times there is a blank Exhibit A to satisfy the requirement...I will defer any authority or knowledge on this matter to JK....she knows more about it, I assure you.
| Reply by JK/TX on 6/15/07 10:11pm
Msg #195446
Re: Legal Description (Exhibit "A") is required...AHHHHH..:)
This is what I would do if I had a problem w/the legal missing, as a SA........ suggest the borrower/seller fill in the blank Ex A... Lot number, Block number, Subdiv, Vol/Pg if known, City, County,State...... Borrower/Seller have this info somewhere.... on the contract/deed or they can look it up on the internet under CAD..... they can initial this page...... ..... I cannot tell you what to do...BUT... this is what I think (out loud) for a blank Ex.A for legal or missing Ex A..... send it back w/pkg.....
Don't conclude....OH, blank doc, can't notarize..get on the phone...call...call.call.. call the whole thing OFF ??....just think it thru.... that's what this WHOLE service is about...... THAT'S what separates the pro's from the 45/60service that makes a title co shake... drink... cuss....bottoms up !!........... I, can't,,, drive.......(for)........ 55 !!
| Reply by JK/TX on 6/15/07 10:13pm
Msg #195447
OOOPS. Legal Description (Exhibit "A") is required...AHH..:)
IMHO..... i am not an attorney and i am not giving legal advise.......
| Reply by BrendaTx on 6/16/07 9:29am
Msg #195473
Re: Legal Description (Exhibit "A") is required...AHHHHH..:)
**that's what this WHOLE service is about...... THAT'S what separates the pro's from the 45/60service that makes a title co shake... drink... cuss....bottoms up !!**
Amen!
In a parallel life to my notary world I had my brush with a tiny bit of this. I sent a simple letter of fact to a person to sign...a statement of intent (regarding a non-loan situation).
It would be notarized in California. Therefore, I knew the ack had to have certain elements in it for California, applied those to the ack and got a legal wizard to bless that before it was sent off.
I placed a bet b/f it went that if it got into the hands of a new notary it would come back with an xyz sanctioned ack attached to it. I was right. The person took it to a notary with a new commission and sure nuf it came back like I knew it would. That notary was taught that the ack I had sent was non-compliant. Another ack was attached to it and the one on the document was left blank.
No big deal except that it wasn't non-compliant...I was interested to see what would happen if I sent a compliant ack according to CA...and I got the XYZ ack attached to it no matter what... when that happens for no good reason, say on deeds of trust, it costs another $4 to record and it bears the XYZ, recorded for all posterity, and a red border, etc. on the ack. Being from the title background, JK knows how difficult this can be. Someone has to pay for the unnecessary $4 page either up front (over estimate) or afterwards (under estimate).
It didn't make a hill of beans in this instance to us, but it sure told the story in black and white (and red). Compliant does not mean a red border, jazzed up ack with check boxes and fru frus. It has certain elements on it and that's that. FWIW....
| Reply by JK/TX on 6/16/07 12:14pm
Msg #195486
Re: Legal Description (Exhibit "A") is required...AHHHHH..:)
*** I placed a bet b/f it went that if it got into the hands of a new notary it would come back with an xyz sanctioned ack attached to it. I was right. **
LOL :o)))
Is that called a sucker bet? Hope you were able to get free groceries for the week... or a tank of gas !!
| Reply by Julie/MI on 6/15/07 9:23pm
Msg #195437
Was Mr. Piombino ever a recorder; I was
And is is a misconception that the recorder is to puruse the document for potential pages swapping.
the recorder does not care about page swapping, it's a recording agency only and it's up to the title company to determine the legality of any recorded instrument.
A page could get replaced for example, if a standard mortgage was returned to the title company and an employee spill coffee all over page 8 of the standard mortgage--there is no harm in swapping the same page.
What does Mr. Piombino think the recorder does? Call the page swapping police? this is why we don't need notary organizations and notary authors, the laws are state specific. Just money makers.
As far as exhibit A, many don't even use that page, they simply add the legal description after it goes back to the title company and title company sends it to the register of deeds and that page would not be embossed.
| Reply by Gerry_VT on 6/15/07 10:22pm
Msg #195449
Re: Was Mr. Piombino ever a recorder; I was
I was also thinking Mr. Piombino's emphasis on the recorder was misplaced. The recorder probably would, and perhaps should, record an instrument that had all but one page embossed. The one time I recorded something in person, the recorder used a smudger on the embossed seals so they would show up on microfilm. (The document I recorded only had a seal on the signature page, and I was not acting as a notary; I can't remember what my role was.)
But later, the borrower might default, and the lender would try to foreclose on the 2500 s.f. stick-built colonial named on the lender's copy of the mortgage. The borrower cries foul and claims the property that should be foreclosed on is the 900 s.f. mobile home that the borrower also owns, as clearly shown on the borrower's copy. Then it would be time to call in the forensic document examiners.
| Reply by Julie/MI on 6/16/07 12:43pm
Msg #195488
you gotta be kidding me, too much drama
Forensic document examiners?????????????????????????
That "smudger" is merely a large piece of graphite.
I am speculating that you are referring to a wrong legal that got on the mortgage/deed of trust, well it's no big deal, it just gets re-recorded with the correct legal and they can still proceed with litigation on the right property.
It's painfully evident, that many notaries have no clue what really happens with title work and have ventured into waters that they don't know about.
This post is not a anyone specifically. 
| Reply by Gerry_VT on 6/17/07 11:58am
Msg #195579
Re: you gotta be kidding me, too much drama
Julie's position seems to be that if the wrong legal description got attached to a mortgage, to the advantage of the lender and the disadvantage of the borrower, the lender will just do the right thing and correct the problem. I have no experience with this kind of situation, so I don't know what would really happen. I don't know how hard it would be to figure out which description is the right one, other than just taking the borrower's word for it. What I do know is that lenders are running around making absurd loans with all kinds of traps for the unwary; that just does not seem like the behavior of a company that can be trusted to do the right thing.
By the way, the smudger looked sort of like a round rubber stamp pad that was used upside-down.
| Reply by Ernest__CT on 6/15/07 1:27pm
Msg #195364
Thank you all who Posted so far, ...
... it has been a great discussion so far and I'll bet we get more opinions!
| Reply by dickb/wi on 6/15/07 2:30pm
Msg #195374
enclosed..a must read article...........
taken from "The Notary" a publication of the Notary Law Institute, published july/august 2006..
Pick up a notary journal in any office supply store, or ordered from the internet, and you will
often find a place for the document signer to make a thumb print in the journal. Who gave the notary the legal authority to take a person’s thumb print ina journal? Unless you are a commissioned notary in the state of California and are notarizing upon a conveyance of real property, you have no such authority! Wait a minute. Must a notary be granted the legal authority to take thumb prints in a notary journal? As a matter of law, yes. Every action a
notary takes is an official act and function prescribed by law. A notary journal is a public record of governmental acts performed by the notary on behalf of the state which commissioned her/him. In legal principle, a notary is granted ministerial authority by the state. Under this form of authority, everything a notary does is “official state business” and is
limited to what the state permits the notary to do.As a highway patrol officer has no authority to seize your flat-screen TV from your home because you were speeding, a notary should not take a document signer’s finger or thumb print in her/his journal without legal authority.Some people will argue that taking finger or thumb prints in a notary journal is legally authorized because it constitutes caution and “reasonable care” on the part of the notary. This argument sounds plausible, but is not legally sound. In fact, it overlooks a number of holes contained within it.Fingerprints and thumb prints in notary journals do not necessarily add to the probative value of the information recorded within the journal.A person’s finger prints are private information.Unless state law grants the notary legal authority totake and record signer fingerprints in a journal, it is notarial misconduct to do so. It is an abuse of authority and, arguably, may potentially give rise to a legal cause of action against the notary.We are all free to voluntarily give our fingerprints to others, and even leave them at crime scenes! But, as non-California notaries, we must have the authority of law to request them in our journal. No state in the nation grants such authority,except for California and only in specific transactions.If your journal provides for fingerprints, youare in the wrong state.
Who Gave You the Authority to Take Thumb Prints?
| Reply by Gerry_VT on 6/15/07 3:16pm
Msg #195383
Re: enclosed..a must read article...........
Some states do not require a notary to keep a journal. Couldn't the same reasoning in that article be used to argue that notaries should not keep a journal unless their state requires it? Or, maybe they could keep a journal, but not ask their constituents to sign the journal. Or, maybe the reasoning in the article is flawed.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 6/15/07 4:19pm
Msg #195392
Further straying OT...........
Most states that do not demand a journal be kept still do highly recommend it. In any case, they don't prohibit the keeping of a journal.
| Reply by Gerry_VT on 6/15/07 6:53pm
Msg #195413
Re: Further straying OT...........
I think the philosophy of the article was that government officers are in a completely different position than private individuals. Private individuals may do whatever they please unless there is a law against it. Government officers can't do anything unless there is a law saying they can.
| Reply by PAW on 6/15/07 4:41pm
Msg #195396
Specifically addressed in the Florida Manual ...
Though Florida does not require the use of journals, the issue of thumbprints has arisen so many times, it is addressed in the latest edition of the Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries. (pg 67)
Q -May I require the fingerprints of a person for whom I notarize?
A -No. Florida law does not require, nor authorize, notaries to take
fingerprints from persons whose signatures they notarize. Many
notary journals or records books allow space for a thumbprint, but
this feature is optional. If there is no objection from the signer, you may
record a thumbprint in your journal. However, you should not refuse to
provide notary services based solely on the person’s refusal to provide a
fingerprint in your record book.
| Reply by MelissaCT on 6/15/07 9:47pm
Msg #195440
Exactly
A notary can't refuse to notarize (except in CA on a conveyance) due to refusal to place a thumbprint. I personally do thumbprint in my journal. I believe that the key is to be consistent. I do for every transaction, unless I personally know the signer. I have had refusals,I noted in my journal that it was refused and notarized, since the signer had proper ID & that wasn't questionable.
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