Posted by kathy/ca on 6/1/07 6:41pm
Msg #193226

When you have done a "fix" because the 1st notary messed up,

(for example, on the last page of the DOT the notary filled out and stamped the notary cert but failed to have the borrowers sign), would you cross out her notary certificate and add "see attached" then put yours in because, you are the notary having them sign, not her. BUT, knowing that no one is supposed to add anything to or tamper with the notaries cert, while the "fix" seems obvious to me, I dont want to do it that way if I shouldnt. In essence, whe notarized signatures that were non existant.
Has anyone else ever had this happen and how did you handle it? Thanks and have a great weekend.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 6/1/07 6:56pm
Msg #193229

Re: When you have done a "fix" because the 1st notary messed

My first choice would be to have the lender email a new DOT or signature page at least so you can do it clean.
But I have done it both ways and the DOT recorded . Line out the other notary's info, write see attached and use my own loose acknowledgement and make a note in the optional info area of my certificate.

Most of the time, when I am correcting another notary's error, I have just started with a fresh set of docs ..

Reply by kathy/ca on 6/1/07 7:01pm
Msg #193230

Same here, I would have preferred that too but they just

me the "missed and the messed up" documents. The other Notary missed quite a few. I am most concerned about the DOT though and just want to be sure I can cross out the "other" one and attach mine. If I do not cross it out it would appear as though she had them sign and not me and talk about confusion........

Reply by jba/fl on 6/1/07 7:09pm
Msg #193232

Re: Same here, I would have preferred that too but they just

I don't believe that you can "fix" this. You need to have the whole doc resigned in order for you to notarize, using date you witness/sign. Are they asking you just to get this DOT signed? Ok, add your cert. and make sure you date day of you being there. Same for all other docs they may have sent you. But, most likely, they will want you to have all dates match, and you NO CAN DO.
Is this TC or SS?

Reply by ZeeCA on 6/1/07 7:20pm
Msg #193237

i would think you need a clean document.. why down the road

would you want to put yourself in a position of defending yourself why you voided another notarization?

it just seems to me that again lo or? does not know what they are doing but wants it fixed...........

jmo..........

Reply by jba/fl on 6/1/07 7:26pm
Msg #193238

Re: i would think you need a clean document.. why down the road

ZeeCa: I didn't think of LO, but of course he wants his comm. & quota for May to look good, at whoever's expense. My blood pressure is off the charts right now.

Reply by jba/fl on 6/1/07 7:20pm
Msg #193236

Do you want to break the law?

My opinion: They (SS, TC) is hoping you will just get signed, leaving everything else alone. They are asking you to break the law if that is the case. Give this back. The other notary is refusing to do it, which is why you are being called. Insist on proper procedure. You will be liable, and it is not worth it.
**I am not a lawyer, etc. But I think this stinks.**

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/1/07 7:29pm
Msg #193240

Re: Do you want to break the law? JBA

just curious...how would going back to the bwrs and having them acknowledge their signature, then notarizing it be breaking the law? What am I missing?

Reply by ZeeCA on 6/1/07 7:34pm
Msg #193242

Re: Do you want to break the law? JBA

i am not sure if breaking the law... ... but she will be crossing out the already filled in notarial section after the b/os sign.... and signing and sealing w/ a new notarial stamping....my concern is down the road how do you stand up and account that the b/o signed YOUR notary seal/stamp?

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/1/07 7:42pm
Msg #193243

Re: Do you want to break the law? JBA

Zee, I see this as a failed notary act. Somewhere our laws say that a notary's failure to complete the notarization correctly by not placing a seal does not screw up the document...that's the gist of it.

There are bad LO's, sure, but there are also good lending institutions who try to help borrowers get funded. Just because notary #1 screwed up doesn't erase the fact that those borrowers were trying to get their paperwork completed properly.

I would take the document signed last month and go back to the borrower and have them acknowledge their signature and I would complete acknowledge properly (actual date) and then send it back to the hiring entity. Of course I would not back date it. I don't care what notary #1 did, I am working on the signature of the signer, not the document. Striking the other notaries certificate is probably not even necessary. I would not strike it because it doesn't concern me.

I'd just git 'er done on my end.

Reply by John_NorCal on 6/1/07 7:51pm
Msg #193245

I agree with Brenda 100% why make more

of this than there need be? Just complete the correct acknowledgement and get it done.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/1/07 8:43pm
Msg #193262

Re: Do you want to break the law? to clarify what I said...

I said, **Somewhere our laws say that a notary's failure to complete the notarization correctly by not placing a seal does not screw up the document...that's the gist of it.**

Here is what I had read from a legal "cheat sheet" source...but I am not a lawyer so I may not be able to interpret this correctly (that was my disclaimer)...

If it was a Tx notary doing the job the absence of a seal kills the *acknowledgment*, however, there are remedies: (1) The original notary can fix it by placing a seal. (2) The Grantor may re-acknowledge the same instrument before another notary (3) If it got accidently recorded with a fatal flaw, a whole other duplicate document *probably* needs to be recorded with proper acknowledgment (4) a District Court is empowered to correct and acknowledgment (Tx Property Code)

In other words, a faulty ack can be cured.
---------
Assume that I am stating an opinion here and because I don't give legal opinions or advice.

Reply by jba/fl on 6/1/07 7:57pm
Msg #193247

Re: Do you want to break the law? JBA

kathy/ca said in her first post that the bor. did not sign. In her 2nd post she said the other notary missed quite a few. I don't know CA law but in FL (and admittedly my gut reaction is to my own laws) the law states "the notary should treat the transaction as a new notarization, the signer must again personally appear and be identified by the Notary. A note should be made on the original notarial certificate saying that the document has been renotarized due to an error in the original certificate. Likewise, the new notarial certificate should have a notation stating the same."
I would think that CA addresses this in somewhat the same manner, but how can kathy/ca do this? Not her certificate in the first place.
I also know that investors want date match on docs, so how can this be accomplished?

Reply by Ndwa on 6/1/07 8:18pm
Msg #193251

Brenda, time to re-post the notary lady story n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/1/07 8:23pm
Msg #193253

Re: Do you want to break the law? JBA

Okay, the bwrs did not sign, so now the borrowers can sign and Kathy notarize their signatures even with the botched document. That's all Kathy's got to work with so she can just work with that. Preferably they'd send another, but they didn't.

As far as what investors want, the question of back dating was not included and I don't presume it has been suggested.

Reply by PAW on 6/1/07 8:28pm
Msg #193257

Re: Do you want to break the law? JBA

If I read the first post correctly as well, the borrowers did not sign the DOT. Therefore the notary block is basically invalid (not a valid act) as there are no signatures being notarized. But, if the notary block is crossed out, then the borrowers sign and a new notary certificated added, it would "appear" that the first (crossed-out) certificate was valid. Thus the specific annotation on the attached certificate describing the circumstances. Of course, all that can be avoided with the use of a clean signature/notary page.

Granted, FL does not allow a notary to "fix" anything, not even their own mistakes. In FL, a new act would need to be completed, including presence of the signer. However, I do not believe that to be the case in California. I will leave that issue up to a CA notary to determine by their own statutes and direction from their SOS.

Reply by JK/TX on 6/1/07 8:33pm
Msg #193259

Re: Do you want to break the law? JBA

Title should have fixed the deed of trust before sending it back out to the 2nd notary. If nothing else reprint it.... or get the lender to send a new dot to them. Since they did not, assuming there are several sig lines for the borrower, the borrower could line/strike-thru all signature lines except the one(s) they sign in front of me and they could date their signature, then I could strike thru existing notary info/cert and reuse if possible, otherwise, attach a loose acknowledgment. This has never created a problem for me with any doc I have had to record in Texas.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/1/07 8:33pm
Msg #193260

Re: Do you want to break the law? JBA

<< my concern is down the road how do you stand up and account that the b/o signed YOUR notary seal/stamp?>>

This is probably why God invented notary journals...

You've got entries in your journal saying that on this date Mr & Mrs BO appeared before you and acknowledged their signatures on the document. Your notarization date on the document matches your journal. Why should that be a problem down the road?

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/1/07 8:49pm
Msg #193265

I think we can all agree it would be best to have a new one

...a new dot, that is, but if there's not a fresh one, just work with what you've got.

In Tx it would not present a problem to have a botched ack along with a curative one, but in California...that's another thing. Seems like Glenn doesn't think it's a real problem just to strike old and attach new.

Reply by JAM/CA on 6/1/07 8:21pm
Msg #193252

I would ask for the complete DOT, not just a signature page. Tell them to send you by email the DOT in it's entirety. You cannot notarize an incomplete document.

Have them check the vesting on first page, sign signature page and notarize their signatures on the date they appear before you.

JMHO

Reply by Joe Ewing on 6/1/07 8:55pm
Msg #193271

Re: When you have done a "fix" because the 1st notary messed

Since it was notary error the notary should be carrying the document out and getting the missed signature. Don't forget the borrower already signed the journal and gave a thumbprint so the notarial act already took place. Kathy if that's not going to happen then why don't you ask the borrower for his copy and notarize that "fresh" deed of trust. I doubt if the county recorder will accept 2 completed acknowledgments from seperate notaries on a recordable document affecting title to real property. But your notarization will be dated differently from the note and that might not fly with the lender.

Reply by Barb/MO on 6/1/07 9:49pm
Msg #193282

Being less experienced and a non-CA notary, I hesitate to

question your statement, "so the notarial act already took place." However, logic leads me to think that because there was no signature(s), the acknowledgment was of no effect. Would there be a legitimate acknowledgment where the notary signed and sealed first, and then the signer signed days later, not in the presence of the notary, nor, obviously, having acknowledged his signature, which didn't even exist at the time of the acknowledgment? Are you saying the journal entry covers all the deficiencies?

Reply by MelissaCT on 6/1/07 9:54pm
Msg #193284

Why not make a copy of the flawed page

white out on the copy the incomplete notarization & then make a copy of that to have the borrowers sign & apply your notarization to -- effectively wiping out the ineffective notarization? Since the first notary didn't really notarize anything (no signatures there) you're effectively getting a clean slate to work with...better yet, have the lender/TC do this for you.

Reply by kathy/ca on 6/1/07 9:59pm
Msg #193286

I spoke to the TC, they said cross out prior notary cert,

write in "see attached Ca Ack", note the situation in the optional section of the cert, also note in my journal, notarize and be done with it. They did send me the entire DOT, the already initialed pages as well as those needing to be initialed. The borrowers had NOT YET signed the signature page, they signed in front of me. I guess my real concern was crossing out the previous notaries certificate, still not sure I feel comfortable with doing that but how else can this be accomplished?!

Reply by Joe Ewing on 6/1/07 11:25pm
Msg #193296

What came first the chicken or the egg

I stand by my statement that the original notarial act did take place and the original notary should carry the document out for the missing signature. Another notary cannot void the original notary's acknowledgment. The signer appeared before the original notary, was properly ID'd, signed the original notarys journal and was fingerprinted. The original notary completed the acknowledgment. The notarial act did take place. End of story. Except the borrower didn't actually sign the document. This is pure notary error and this is why the notary is bonded. Good news, this type of error is about the only "error" Notary E&O Insurance covers. The original notary is the only one who can fix this by obtaining the missed signature. So I disagree with the title company's instructions. I predict that the deed will not record.

Reply by kathy/ca on 6/1/07 11:55pm
Msg #193302

Oops, its getting late (yawn), I started a new thread above,

didnt mean to. Joe, if I replace the notary cert included in the DOT with my own cert (CA ack) wont that take care of the issue of the doc recording?

Reply by JAM/CA on 6/2/07 12:36am
Msg #193311

I totally agree with Joe Ewing in California n/m

Reply by Barb/MO on 6/2/07 6:43am
Msg #193327

I think I understand. As long as the original notary would

be the one to get the signatures, it would be a valid acknowledgment. That wouldn't work, though, for another notary to just get the signatures.

Thanks for the explanation.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/2/07 7:54am
Msg #193331

A lot of confusion here for something so simple imho. n/m

Reply by Joe Ewing on 6/2/07 9:17am
Msg #193339

Re: A lot of confusion here for something so simple imho. n/

Not that confusing after finally finding out the deed was 15 pages and the last page was only the notary acknowledgment. Toss the old ACK, secure the borrowers signature and thumbprint in the journal attach an all-purpose ACK and carry on. What?

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/2/07 9:34am
Msg #193342

Re: A lot of confusion here for something so simple imho

*What?*

That's what I am talking about! Snort, snort, giggle.

Reply by Dave_CA on 6/2/07 10:12am
Msg #193345

How can it be a complete notarial act?

Since we are notarizing signatures not documents and there is no signature I would think this was not.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/2/07 10:25am
Msg #193351

Re: How can it be a complete notarial act?

Dave, I agree with you. But were you talking to me or just making a general comment?

Reply by Dave_CA on 6/3/07 9:12am
Msg #193416

Brenda, Not you just a general comment. n/m

Reply by Joe Ewing on 6/2/07 10:38am
Msg #193352

Re: How can it be a complete notarial act?

CSI Miami would refer to it as rape without DNA evidence. A clear cut case of notary error that if reported to the SOS would be and uncontestable violation of several California notary codes and in addition to a fine and suspension could expose the notarys bond to civil liability. However the original notary is getting a free pass on this therefore not actually learning from the mistake.