Posted by Patricia McGath on 6/13/07 9:20am
Msg #194849

pa laws

what exactly are the laws for a non-borrowing spuse on title in pa?

Reply by Pierces Notary Services on 6/13/07 10:02am
Msg #194853

That spouse needs to sign the Mortgage, TIL & RTC - they may be other forms but can't think of them right off the top of my head.

Reply by SharonMN on 6/13/07 10:55am
Msg #194865

The laws (as far as the signing agent is concerned) are that the non-borrowing spouse signs whatever the title company tells you they should sign. You might be a savvy and conscientious signing agent and say, "Excuse me, title company, there is a non-borrowing spouse - shouldn't they be signing some of these docs?' - but you don't decide that on your own.

Reply by Paul_IL on 6/13/07 11:12am
Msg #194868

Sharon,
If you know your state Requires the non-borrowing spouse to sign certain docs and fail to have those signed because title did not tell you to get them signed then you are Highly Unprofessional! You are also causing unnecessary delays to the borrowers loan funding as the loan will need to be closed again. Do you think they will be calling you to reclose the file?? Highly unlikely! Because of your lack of professionalism the borrowers could lose their lock rate and be forced to pay a higher rate, incure late fees due to delayed closing and the list goes on!

It is quite common for out of state title companies and lenders to make a mistake and not include the NBS on the required docs. I will try to notify title of their error but if this is not possible before the closing I will have the NBS sign all required docs and then notify title after the closing.

Reply by PA_Notary_II on 6/13/07 12:46pm
Msg #194894

Without getting into it too deeply, the NBS should sign the TIL, mortgage and RTC, as Ms Pierce correctly pointed out. In addition, the title Co may want other items signed, such as a document correction agreement or similar docs. By RESPA, anyone who has the right to rescind should also receive copies of those docs so they can peruse them during the 3 day RTC period. You should always ask the TC when in doubt as they are the ones who contracted you to do their job.

Reply by sue_pa on 6/13/07 1:13pm
Msg #194896

I disagree. The answer is to ask. I know of 2 loan products where neither lender has the nonborrowing spouse sign the TIL - the first time I saw it I called and asked. Was told that was how the lender wanted it. The next time I saw it I called again - she (title agent) again told me she had checked with the lender and it was correct. I got a new client that I work for A LOT. They also never have the nonborrowing spouse sign. There are just too many variables for a 'signing agent' to make that determination on their own.

Reply by PA_Notary_II on 6/13/07 1:27pm
Msg #194899

I agree, Sue....always serve the master that's paying you. While I don't agree that the NBS shouldn't sign the TIL, if that's the way they want it, I'm on board. If it's later decided that they are in violation, they will have learned something. Either way, I get paid.

Reply by Paul_IL on 6/13/07 11:42pm
Msg #195016

I would not think I should have to tell you that just because the LO wants something done a specific way does not make it legal, backdating is a perfect example of that fact.

Too often the LO or their processor or an out of state title agent are not aware of the specific state requirements. If a waiver of homestead is included then the nbs may not be required to sign the legals. Do not hide behind the "well the loan officer said it was ok", that is the same rational used by notaries that backdate.

Reply by sue_pa on 6/14/07 8:20am
Msg #195045

your comparisons make no sense

Backdating is a deliberate and illegal act that the notary chooses to do - whether or not someone else tells them it's okay.

A notary/signing agent making the decision on their own which documents someone is to sign is completely wrong. Sign as typed. If you have a lot of experience and you see something that is different than the 90+% norm, call and ask - if it's illegal, it's on them, not me.
There are instances where a spouse shouldn't be signing and sitting at the table it's not for me to decide.

Reply by Paul_IL on 6/14/07 3:20pm
Msg #195150

Re: your comparisons make no sense

You just keep acting like a $50 notary and tell yourself that "it is not my problem or responsibility to make sure this is done correctly according to the law"

I have been told numerous times by LO's that "the borrower does not want his wife to sign Any documents and will not be present for the closing". I inform the LO that the State of Illinois requires the wife to sign the mortgage and legals regardless of the borrower wish. If the LO keeps at it I put him on Hold and call title and put the settlement agent on conference so it can be again explained. Often times the settlement agent is not aware that the borrower is married or the title agent is from out of state. Once I explain that Illinois requires the signatures the settlement agent then informs the borrower I am indeed correct and the wife or husband must be present to sign the legals.

There are only a very few exceptions to the rule at least in IL the most common being a waiver of homestead and I am aware of all of them and will not knowingly do something I know to be contrary to IL legal requirements just because the LO wants it that way. I am a registered Title agent and Real Estate Broker and could be held liable should any issues arise should the NBS suddenly discover there is an extra or new mortgage on the property that they were not consulted about.

I know of a situation where the NBS wife later found out that her husband had borrowed all the equity in their home to feed his gambling addiction. Their home was nearly paid for and is now mortgaged to the max. We will have to wait and see what the court says about everyone from the LO down to the notary who allowed this to happen without the wifes consent. I am sure your "it's on them, not me" would play well for the judge.

Reply by sue_pa on 6/14/07 5:27pm
Msg #195202

Re: your comparisons make no sense

... You just keep acting like a $50 notary ... Oh my, you have no idea...

I have closed A LOT of loans in my time and I cannot remember even one instance where I had a discussion with a loan officer as to who was signing what documents. If I have a question I call my client, the title company. PA is not a 'homestead' state so I've got no idea what any of that is about but I guarantee if I as a notary/signing agent make a legal determination at the table as to who is to sign paperwork and I 'guess' wrong, I am the one in trouble. We have absolutely no authority at all to make this determination. Who am I to know whether they really are or are not married - I get 1 or 2 a year that don't know - they say/think they are common law (not in PA); they are separated/think divorce went through; get married with an internet type minister (up in the air in PA as to whether that's legal), did the little Quaker ceremony on the corner, etc. How do I know if someone has signed a spousal waiver? How do I know if they have forwarded an Antenuptial Agreement to the lender? WAY too many variables for us to make decisions. My client is the one who tells me what to do and I'd be just fine with that should I ever end up in court. I surely would end up before the AG should a loan go bad and I was the one to make the legal determination that someone should/should not have signed a document. Perhaps your TPL gives you further 'powers' than the rest of us.

Reply by Joan_OH on 6/13/07 10:38pm
Msg #195012

I'm sorry. I think "Highly unprofessional" is a little overboard. I think you are putting all the responsibility and blame on the notary when it absolutely is someone elses job to instruct what needs to be signed and by who. Blaming the notary for not getting unmentioned, possibly unknown, spouses signatures, losing a rate lock and causing unnecessary delays is rediculous (sp).

I can't remember the last time Countrywide actually printed in a non-borrowing spouse on the dower docs. I have to do it nearly EVERY time. How did it get to this? At a minimum, title could send a cover sheet with NBS instructions. Most know the TIL, RTC, Mortgage/DOT get signed, but I spoke to someone last week with MANY years experience who had to go back out to get the Document Correction agreement signed. Of course no spouse was mentioned anywhere and instructions are to have spouse, if there is one, to sign the dowers. The Document Correction agreement is specific to Countrywide as a dower doc. Unless you ask or are instructed, how would you know?

Yes, we should know we whether we are in a dower state and what that implies as far as the docs go - but that is just general. I maintain, for the sake of those who don't have years under their belt that unless you are very familiar with your client and client's products, or have standing instructions, it's always best to ask and recognize when you need to make a phone call.

Knowing what to ask and when to ask will get you farther in this business than anything else.

Sorry, we are going to have to disagree on what you think is "unprofessional"

Joan-OH

Reply by PA_NOTARY on 6/13/07 11:31pm
Msg #195015

WE ARE not a dower state but we are a marital state. there is a difference,