Posted by eaolano on 3/14/07 1:19pm
Msg #179873

On signatures (again)

Hello. I posted this as a reply to another thread (on the second page) and thought that it would make the thread resurface on the first page. It didn't so I'm starting a new thread. This is regarding the issue with borrowers having different signatures than what's typed in the docs. Here was my post:

Sorry to be digging this up. I've read this and other similar threads. Everyone seems to have their own way of dealing with this issue. So, it doesn't look like there is a definitive answer. I take it even the lenders/TC's have different answers as to whether "signing as typed" is a MUST or just a SHOULD or whether "signing as typed" is to be interpreted literally. Correct?

What would be the best approach for "scrawlers" in particular? Once you've seen their signature on the ID or on your journal, do you right away tell them to sign as usual or should you at least recommend signing as typed first? And if they object adamantly, then you retreat (sheepishly?) and say that they could actually sign that way. The retreating part is what makes me worried. It might make them think that I'm incompetent or wishy-washy and that would make the entire signing session awkward.

In other words, what's the best script to use, if anyone wouldn't mind spoonfeeding me with it?

Thanks.
Ever

Reply by Ndwa on 3/14/07 2:09pm
Msg #179881

Here's my script:

**Per lender's request and/or instruction, please do sign the docs as typed. However, I have no objection to the uniqueness of your signature, but it will be at the lender's discretion.**

I believed the "sign as typed" is nothing but a preference as we are dealing with legal documents. I've been told consistency is what matter most. I've had Jon Doe Smith signed with three circles looped together and the loan funded.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/14/07 2:16pm
Msg #179883

Re: On signatures (again) Andy...

**I believed the "sign as typed" is nothing but a preference**

Yep. You are totally 100% correct. High finance and business transactions went on long before notaries got into signing loans getting pages of instructions...and it went just fine without all those writing and initial rules.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 3/14/07 2:53pm
Msg #179886

Re: A person's signature is just that -- their very own

signature. You, me, absolutely NO ONE has a right to tell someone that they must sign their name, i.e., "scrawl" legibly. The only thing that matters is that the signature matches their driver's license -- it makes no difference at all that you can't read it, or that no one else but their own mother can read it. The first thing out of my mouth is to sign their name exactly as the docs appear -- whether it can be read or not, is not my concern.

Reply by eaolano on 3/14/07 3:07pm
Msg #179891

Re: A person's signature is just that -- their very own

Thank you, all. Carolyn, you're referring to any signature, whether legible or not, right?

It's just that I've heard stories about borrowers signing without their middle initial (I'm assuming that's how they signed on the ID) and the documents being rejected, causing a resign. So, I'm not sure this as well as the "as long as it's consistent throughout" argument will work in all cases or with all lenders/recorders (unless you were all specifically referring to ILLEGIBLE signatures only).

There doesn't seem to be a universal one-size-fits-all answer.

Thanks again!
Ever

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 3/14/07 3:15pm
Msg #179896

Re: A person's signature is just that -- their very own

Again, you can't "make" them sign a certain way. I tell them how they are supposed to sign "exactly as the name is typed" but if they don't or won't, I'm not going to get in a confrontation with them. Friday night, docs didn't have an initial, althought BO insisted on signing with initial -- as that is his legal signature -- docs were signed consistent throughout with a middle initial.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 3/14/07 3:26pm
Msg #179902

Legal signature myth

I think the concept that a person has one legal signature is a myth. What does exist is previous examples of a person's signature, and sometimes a new signature is compared to an old signature as a method of identification. But if a new signature does not match an old signature because of an injury, because the person is signing with an electronic pen instead of an ink pen, or just because the person feels like changing the signature style, the new signature is not illegal. It just means some additional checking might be needed to verify the person's identity.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 3/14/07 3:33pm
Msg #179907

Re: Legal signature myth

When I reference "legal signature" I'm referring to whether or not they *normally* sign with or without an initial -- usually when I question them, 99% of the time, I'm told "this is my legal signature - this is how I sign my signature."

Reply by Gerry_VT on 3/14/07 6:10pm
Msg #179944

Re: Legal signature myth

Yes, some people seem to have the idea that they must always sign their name exactly the same way they signed it when they obtained their first drivers license, or it doesn't count. That's what I mean when I say legal signature are a myth.

Reply by eaolano on 3/14/07 3:29pm
Msg #179904

Re: Oversigning

Your Friday night example is considered oversigning, which, from what I've read, is okay. But if it was the other way around, i.e. the docs had the middle initial and the signature (legible) didn't, then it *might* pose a problem (again, from what I've read).

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 3/14/07 3:36pm
Msg #179908

Re: Oversigning

Again, I'm not going to be the "signing police." If their sig is legible, but they won't sign as typed, I simply put a note in the package as to why.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/14/07 3:20pm
Msg #179900

Re: A person's signature is just that -- their very own

<< It's just that I've heard stories about borrowers signing without their middle initial (I'm assuming that's how they signed on the ID) and the documents being rejected, causing a resign.>>

I think that would only be an issue if the borrower's signature was legible. When it's a scrawl, who can tell whether the middle initial is there or not? It's not like you can look for a bump in the scrawl and say that must be it.

As long as the docs are signed consistently and you've verified that the scawl in your journal matches the scrawl on their ID, you should be OK.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 3/14/07 3:11pm
Msg #179892

Re: Additionally ...

I was notarizing foreign adoption papers not too long ago. The couple was more "antsy" than had they been in the delivery room ... they made several "practice" copies of the papers being signed and notarized -- they didn't like my signature and said that it didn't look like my name. They insisted on me changing it so that it would appear legible. I refused and told them they could find another notary, but they agreed to continue. After we finished, they went directly to the SOS to have the notarizations certified that I was a notary in good standing in Colorado. My signature, which they complained was not legible, is the exact signature the SOS has on file -- if it hadn't matched, the docs couldn't have been certified.

Reply by eaolano on 3/14/07 3:20pm
Msg #179899

Re: A person's signature is just that -- their very own

Also, if you don't mind... when you tell them to sign as typed and they still sign as usual, how exactly does that happen? Do they just not hear you? Or do they not understand what it means? But if they don't, wouldn't they at least ask you?

Here's the sequence:

1. You say: Please sign as your name appears.
2. -- What goes on here? What's said by whom? --
3. They end up signing NOT as typed, i.e. not doing what you just requested them to do.

What goes on in #2? There's gotta be something there. I can't see how they would just ignore your instruction in #1 without anyone saying anything. If that happened to me, I would be like "Did they just not hear me or did they intentionally ignore me?".

Sorry for being too meticulous about it. The subject of signatures has always been the grayest area for me.

Thanks again,
Ever

Reply by eaolano on 3/14/07 3:24pm
Msg #179901

Re: A person's signature is just that -- their very own

Oh, nm... You've answered this in one of your later posts.

Thanks,
Ever

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 3/14/07 3:27pm
Msg #179903

Re: A person's signature is just that -- their very own

I guess I just don't make that big of a thing about it. I tell them at the very beginning to sign as the name is typed. If the first document is not signed as typed (with or without an initial) and the signature is legible, I ask them to resign as typed. If they do, fine, if they argue saying that "this is my legal signature" or refuse, I allow them to sign however they want as long as each document is signed consistently throughout the package. When sending package back, I include a note with the reason the docs are not signed as typed.

Reply by eaolano on 3/14/07 3:33pm
Msg #179905

Re: THANK YOU ALL!!!

I appreciate all your responses. Let me digest them and see if I can somehow reconcile them all together.

Ever

Reply by Les_CO on 3/14/07 4:25pm
Msg #179921

I guess I should not post this, but after reading these opinions I think I will.
I agree with Caroline. Ones “signature is their signature” (your job is to see them sign it, and try and verify it)
I LOVE MD’s (scrawlers)
I HATE people that got A’s in penmanship!
Mexicans have a “sign” (official signature)
Chinese have a “chop” (ditto)
We have ????
I always say: PLEASE sign your name as printed on the docs. Your name shows up this way on some recorded doc’s somewhere, or that’s how you applied for this loan, so I need you to sign as stated on the printed docs.”
Middle initials are especially a problem. I’ve had people sign some of the docs WITH their middle initial, and (when they get tired) some not. These WILL come back! (If they’re legible!)
This is NOT up to you. It’s up to the lender. Tell them to sign as requested, (printed) if they don’t (and one can actually read the signature) you will have problems.

Reply by Sharon Taylor on 3/14/07 9:06pm
Msg #179985

Borrowers must sign as typed

It doesn't matter if borrowers scrawl or print or use fancy cursive writing or an indeciperable tangle of lines, as long as it is the way they normally write (or print) their name. What is absolutely critical is that they sign as they are named on the docs. If the name on the docs is Susan J. Jones, she cannot sign Susan Jones or Suzy Jones or Sue Jones even if she normally signs everything else that way. The lender and title company know her as "Susan J. Jones", period. However, she can scrawl or print or use fancy cursive writing or an indeciperable tangle of lines to sign that "Susan J. Jones" as long as that is her normal handwriting.
Occasionally you'll find docs with mixed names, i.e. "Susan Jones" on some and "Susan J. Jones" on others. If I can't reach the title company for clarification, I have the borrower sign the longer version "Susan J. Jones" on everything. As Sylvia and others have said, "Less is not acceptable, but more is OK", meaning that if the typed name is "Susan J. Jones", she can't sign just "Susan Jones", but if the typed name on some docs is "Susan Jones" and on other docs is "Susan J. Jones", she could sign "Susan J. Jones" on all of them.