Posted by JBarnes_NY on 3/20/07 2:59am
Msg #180764
e-mail fees
I received a call yesterday from a client I have been working for since 2000, they said they are trying to save money, since fees for them are being cut, they wanted to know if they could start e-mailing me all docs, but keep the same fees.
The closing co-odinator said, I would possibly get more work from them, I believe I get all their work already in the area, the thing I am concerned with is losing them, they are my oldest and best client, I am calling them today with me decision, any advice would be appreciated, thanks!!
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/20/07 3:09am
Msg #180765
Is this a signing service asking for help to stay alive? n/m
| Reply by JBarnes_NY on 3/20/07 5:13am
Msg #180770
Re: Is this a signing service asking for help to stay alive?
No this is actually a Title company
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/20/07 3:27am
Msg #180766
Are your costs going down? No? Advice: Save yourself. n/m
| Reply by Leon_CO on 3/20/07 5:02am
Msg #180768
>> any advice would be appreciated <<
-------------------------------------------------------
The best advice that anyone can give you is to make your own business decisions.
I don't care much for private messages, so I wrote a much longer response to your dilema on my blog this morning. I think it's good general advice, and I tried to be as objective as possible.
Good luck.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 3/20/07 5:06am
Msg #180769
So they are asking you if it's OK to increase your time spent & your expenses so they can decrease your bottom line while increasing theirs? If you do this, I have a bridge you might like to buy.
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/20/07 6:51am
Msg #180776
I think you can discount the "possibly get more work from them" part - they're basically saying "you must agree to do this, and in return maybe we will do that." Interesting negotiation tactic...
What percentage of your business do they represent? Can you afford to lose their business without it making a significant effect on your bottom line? You know what their package looks like, and you should have a rough idea of what paper and toner costs, plus there's your time and the wear and tear on the printer - you can come up with a rough estimate of what it would cost you to print one of their packages. You don't necessarily have to make a profit on that, but you do have to be able to cover your costs. Can you negotiate an additional fee that will be fair to both of you (don't forget, they're also saving the outbound courier fee)?
Taking less money for more work is never going to be a winning proposition, but ultimately you have to decide what's best for your business. Sometimes it makes more sense to just walk away.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
| Reply by JulieD/KS on 3/20/07 7:02am
Msg #180777
Under no circumstances would I ever accept such a deal. I don't care how long or how good of a client they are; extra work means I charge more. I am not in the charity business and for them to ask you to cough up free paper, toner plus wear & tear on your printer just because they don't want to incur the cost of printing and shipping docs? PHOOEY.
Don't even dignify them with an answer. What an insult to your professionalism.
| Reply by sue_pa on 3/20/07 7:15am
Msg #180779
... for them to ask you to cough up free paper, toner plus wear & tear on your printer ...
the bigger expense is your time - not necessarily time to print the docs because if you've got the right equipment it won't take near the hour I see mentioned on this board sometimes - it's your time being available to print the docs. We are mobile and should be on the road meeting with people closing loans - not returning to the office, sitting doing clerical work. We are not sitting in an office with borrowers coming in our door - hit the print button for the 3:00 appt. while meeting with the 2:00 appt. - printing the copy package while they're signing the originals - except for those who are totally mobile and even then if you've got a loan package w/3-5 e-mails, including several attachments, you're not driving, you're sitting in a parking lot printing. This time being 'available' for docs is time that many of us used to spend on the road closing loans. Many of us closed in excess of 10 loans a day, every day for quite a long time. With e-docs, that is no longer possible and that time is what must be compensated for.
By the way, I am amazed when I see people charging only $25 for e-docs. EVERY time I have seen a title company charge a specific line item for e-docs it has been $50 - including my own lawyer who calls it 'internet download fee'.
| Reply by Judith Korff on 3/20/07 8:34am
Msg #180806
Sue's right on. How many times have we had to sit around and even be late for one closing while waiting for loan docs for another? If they could get us the docs early in the day so we could get out the door and do our closings back-to-back, it would be much easier to accommodate more clients in a single day. But to wait until 2 hours beforehand (especially when you've already advised them that the borrower is an hour or more away!) just wastes your time. They should be prepared to pay for that.
| Reply by OnTheDot_CO on 3/20/07 8:21am
Msg #180800
I might consider a volume discount, they more they give you the less it cost them. This is done in a lot of businesses.
| Reply by Genkichan on 3/20/07 8:38am
Msg #180808
Hmmm, my initial reaction is, no, I'm sorry I can't increase my expenses and receive the same pay so that you can decrease yours.
But thinking things through a bit more, if they are truly a very good client that you wish to maintain, perhaps you might be able to find a compromise to the situation. Let's say that they give you 10 loans a month on average. Maybe they can agree to give you an extra $25.00 per e-doc loan (extra $50 on a piggy) on the first 5 of them, and for every loan after that (in the same month, of course), you reduce your fees either by $10 or so, or even back down to the over night rate. Or create some other kind of similar sliding scale to make sure that
a) the volume actually materializes, and
b) you don't take the full sacrifice, but try to split the difference with them in some way
After all, why should you take the full hit? Good luck!
| Reply by Lee/AR on 3/20/07 9:10am
Msg #180813
Excellent suggestion, Genkichan...
Discounts ONLY go to real volume clients. No volume/No discount. Perfect! It's a win/win that is unarguable.
| Reply by Nicholsons Mobile Notary Service on 3/20/07 9:38am
Msg #180819
Re: Excellent suggestion, Genkichan...
I tried that and all it got me was a non ringing phone. All I can say is watch out. I finally bought into not working unless I am paid a fair price. What is a fair price. This is my situation
Was doing 15-20 signings a week. Gradually tried to get my fees increased to where I was actually making a buck. First cut back my mileage driven for that base fee. Went from 70 miles to 35 miles one way for $65 base. Calls dropped off 50%
Then upped edocs fee $5 calls dropped off 20% more.
Finally added the $10 fee for excessive fax backs 30-60+ pages. Phone stopped ringing.
This is what I now charge.
Base overnight docs $65 Edocs just raised to $30
Mileage driven one way for base fee just lowered to 35 miles one way was 70!!!not by my choice just kept getting pushed by companies I was working for.
Fax back fee when excessive over 20 pages $10 was expected to fax back 60+ pages Crazy!
Second piggybacked $25
I was working for a number of title companies and when I finally said I need to get paid to cover my costs well the phone no longer rings.
Do you feel the new fees are too terrible?
Watch out. If you buy into the line do not sell yourself short and demand a fair pay you may be sitting on your butt and starting all over again. Be ready to do that. It happened to me.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 3/20/07 9:48am
Msg #180821
What your experience indicates..
is it's still the same old game: we want more, so you take less. No pleasing weasels, I guess.
| Reply by Dorothy_MI on 3/20/07 10:35am
Msg #180829
check your PM n/m
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 3/20/07 9:34am
Msg #180817
Unfortunately, more and more companies in our's and.....
other industries are asking their suppliers and /or employees
to take a hit in order to help them out due to higher cost,
lower volume, etc. etc. At least they can't outsource our function
to India (yet).
You might want to check into a new printer with a lower costs per copy.
Agree to a lesser , or no e-doc fee if dox are sent at least one day,
before signing date, ask them to prepare power ship airbill to save you
time , and them money.
You need to determine if maintaining their business is worth it, even if your
profitabilty declines.
Also, things may get better. They could pick up a new lender(s) in the future
and greatly increase your volume with them.
They might remember those NSAs that helped them out and re-pay your
loyalty and flexibility.
Don't take it personally. It does not seem that they are singling you out
for harsh treatment.
Good luck
| Reply by ZeeCA on 3/20/07 10:03am
Msg #180824
i have read thru all the posts and my first reaction was huh? they expect the notary to supply the paper, ink and what not to ensure that they have more profit... and I read and read still say HUH ? Anyone they outsource to is not going to carry their company for free for the wonderful pleasure of their busines...
MHO: If you agree to this you have opened the door for them to continue to nickel and dime you until you are working for peanuts...you have sold out...
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/20/07 6:30pm
Msg #180924
I don't think it's that cut and dried....
In my previous corporate life, the CIO of our company decreed that all IT vendors would cut their prices by 10% or cease being vendors. Most complied, some didn't; those that didn't were cut off cold. It was the perfect example of the Golden Rule - he who controls the gold makes the rules. Cost containment is common in all businesses, and it always flows downhill. (PS: the CIO's bonus was increased because he met the cost control targets set for him by upper management)
I don't think you can take a hard line when you're the one providing the service that they're paying for - that may work (sometimes) in business-to-consumer, but it invites disaster in business-to-business. You need to be flexible, and you need to find win-win solutions that you can negotiate. That could mean working out a volume discount, or agreeing to discount invoices if paid within a certain time period, or simply finding some middle ground between their demands and your needs. You also have to figure out what it costs you to do what they're asking you to do for free, and whether there's any way to reduce you costs to make it more palatable - not knowing where your break-even point is means you're flying blind. And after all this analysis and negotiation, you can decide whether to go forward or step back and punt...
IMO, drawing a line in the sand is not a good idea, especially in this market. It could result in you contemplating your navel while waiting for the phone to ring. I've seen a number of posts here that state something along the lines of "I won't even start my car for less than $XXX". OK, fine - but if you get no one willing to pay your minimum, and have turned down 10 offerings that pay $25 less, how much money have you made and how much have you lost? Have you priced your services correctly for the current market, or are your competitors eating your lunch? More importantly - if your competitors are undercutting you, can you afford to stick by your guns and wait them out?
All this stuff has to be taken into account, and you have to be able to shift gears when necessary. The idea that you should just stand your ground and not sell out is wonderful; however, while you can certainly stand on principle, you can't use it to pay your bills.
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