Posted by LBAZ on 5/20/07 2:12pm
Msg #191015
Borrower's name... ??
Wondering what fellow notarys do...when thd loan docs have the name of Raymond C. Brown on them, and the borrowers i.d says Raymond Charles Brown, Jr., do you call lender/escrow and have docs redrawn? Borrower goes by R.C. Brown and not Raymond. I have docs that never include the borrowers initial, or Jr. or Sr. when i.d. shows it. Should they be redrawn also? I have never had to go out and re-sign because of this, but in past posts, I have been wondering what is the right thing to do. Any help is appreciated. P.S. the name listed in example is only that. Not the name of a real borrower.  THX
| Reply by Gerry_VT on 5/20/07 2:24pm
Msg #191017
Follow the rules in your state. If your state rules are silent on the issue, you should convince yourself that the name in the document refers to the same person as the name on the ID. Ordinarily, if the name on the documents is a short form of the name on the ID, you should be fine. (Unless you had some reason to believe the house was actually owned by Raymond Clark Brown, and you suspected Raymond Charles Brown was up to no good.)
| Reply by Tess/ME on 5/20/07 3:12pm
Msg #191019
Jr. is a legal part of a son's name that has been named for his father.
My husband's name is (example) John L. Jones and our son is named (ex) John L. Jones, Jr. (This IS listed on his birth certificate)
Now they both have ID with their name and middle initial and also an ID with first and middle names spelled out, but only my son has "JR" after his complete name.
If our son were to decide he wanted to refi or even mortgage our property and everything came up in the name John L. Jones and our son showed his stating John Lewis Jones, Jr. and was allowed to sign documents stating he was my husband I think I would be extremely angry with him and almost as upset with the "stupid" notary that allowed this to happen.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 5/20/07 3:17pm
Msg #191020
Precisely, Tess.
You really are 'born a Jr.'. You are not born a Sr.; you acquire that suffix the same time you acquire/name the kid 'Jr.'.
| Reply by Stamper_WI on 5/20/07 3:33pm
Msg #191021
Re: Precisely, Tess.
I experienced this as a Realtor. The father was buying a house. He also had a very common first and second name as well as a son named the same (Jr). When his back ground was run for financing. 75 liens popped up under that name. None were his, 3 were his sons and the others were no relation. What a nightmare sorting those out! He darned near lost the house he wanted.
| Reply by jojo_MN on 5/20/07 4:25pm
Msg #191022
You should always sign the documents exactly as printed. If there is a discrepancy, you should contact the hiring entity and ask how they want to procede. Sometimes it could be as simple as crossing out the wrong information with one line through it and reprint it the correct way and have each borrower initial (and you, if it is a notarized document) the change. Other companies require that the documents be re-drawn. It is not our place to determine how the documents are signed. IMHO
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/20/07 4:44pm
Msg #191023
Depends on what your state requires; some (like mine) only require only that the notary be reasonably certain of the identity, and leave what that means up to the notary.
The real problem here is the "Jr." part - as Lee said, you're born a "Jr." and that follows you through life. Personally, if the BOs ID says "Jr." and the documents do not, I wouldn't go forward with it - there's no way I can be certain that those names refer to the same person. Let the lender decide what to do; at the very least, I would imagine that Title would require a Same Name Affidavit (and there may be one in the packet) before they issue the title policy, but it's not the notary's call.
| Reply by Gerry_VT on 5/20/07 6:00pm
Msg #191027
I have to disagree with Mike and Lee. In some families, juniors drop the suffix when the father dies; in other families, juniors keep the suffix for life. Some fathers of juniors use the Sr. suffix, but most don't. I've never seen anything law in any state that regulates the use of either suffix.
| Reply by Ndwa on 5/20/07 5:02pm
Msg #191024
"Don't analyze...Just notarize" n/m
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 5/20/07 5:38pm
Msg #191026
As in all cases, the issue of your state's laws control, but
if legal, you might be able to confirm that you have the correct
party by extaneous means.
Notary laws were not really written with our NSA functions in
mind, primarily because our business did not exist when most state's
NP laws were written.
The typical NP transaction involves a person bringing a doc to the NP
place of business with an DL. Those are the only facts that the NP has avialable
to ID the signer.
We are usually in their home, with wife, kids, pictures on the wall and tons of info on
the dox that WE have brought with us.
Several issues,
Patriot act considerations, as reqd by lender.
Is this the same party who is the owner of the PIQ
Is this the same party that the lender checked out to be the bwr.
Remember , lender checked bwrs out and made appt for us to come
to their home.
You might look at age and SS # as shown on 1003, and compare to bwr's
ID info, do the kids call him "Daddy,"? Do they all seem to live there. etc, etc.
Does the whole picture pass the "smell test"
That's why we get the big bucks, and charge a whole lot more
than x$ / notorial act.
| Reply by Simple Solutions Notary Service - JoAnn Baracosa on 5/20/07 6:27pm
Msg #191028
Re: As in all cases, the issue of your state's laws control, but
I first would call the LO. I would have the borrower sign exactly as the docs are prepared.
I have found that in most of the signing I have done there is a Name Affidavit in the package. If I couldn't get call of the LO would include one of your own Name Affidavit filled out by the Borrower and let the LO decide what to do. Then I would send a note back to the LO when I returned the docs the them. I would let the SS know when I confirmed the signing complete via- Email and send the exact email to the LO. That IMHO would be the best way to cover all bases.
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 5/20/07 10:05pm
Msg #191038
In my experience, when it comes to this type of issue,....
the L/O has about the same knowledge and authority as
the fedex/ups driver.
The Loan Processor is the party who generally has the knowledge and
authority to deal with these types of issues.
I also do not feel that we should be adding our own dox to the loan
pkg.
I was addressing the issue of properly identifying the signer as the
proper party, not how the names should be signed.
If they are the proper party , they should be signing as the dox are
drawn. Our job is to determine if they are, in fact, the proper party to
be signing in accordance with the law of our state AND the reqmts of the lender.
| Reply by VBNotaryVA on 5/20/07 10:47pm
Msg #191042
Re: In my experience, when it comes to this type of issue,....
Couldn't this be coovered by adding the other name variation to the Signature AKA doc? That's the way I've done in the past.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 5/21/07 6:47am
Msg #191064
Re: In my experience, when it comes to this type of issue,....
I agree with Bob. My opinion is:
Don't add aka's or name affidavits to the package if you are the notary unless you want to be perceived as doing UPL.
It's not our business what the vesting is on the documents.
We have no right to suggest the vesting is wrong.
We ID the signer by our state's rules and meet the lender requirements. We don't imply or suggest we know what the correct name would be on the documents.
| Reply by MelissaCT on 5/21/07 9:31am
Msg #191077
The name aff doesn't cover the notary, it covers the lender
The name affidavit is not to be used as a catch-all for the notary to not do their due diligence. Just a caveat -- always establish ID of the signer according to your state's laws. Do not try to use the name affidavit to circumvent those laws.
This is not legal advice, merely my opinion based on my experience.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/22/07 12:09am
Msg #191242
Agree 100% with Chicago Bob. We're the face to face,
the personal identification person.
Many times, borrowers are furious at the "chosen" names for them. You should have seen the proud, old man in tears and so shaken to have to write his entire Hitler name, which he hadn't used since he was smuggled out of Poland as a child, sign it out letter by letter again and again and again and again and again...the tears streaming.
The Name should not be dictated by some unknowledgeable, far away person, looking at some document, making assumptions. The phone contact person should be sure to pass on The Name.
Names are sacrocanct (sp?). My Signature is ~mine.~ Your's is yours. There was a Federal Marshall who flat out said "This is my signature. I have no other." Indeed.
BrendaTX had such a good contribution recently about the real world, and the people in it, whatever the business. A breathtaking view of the work-a-day getting the business done.
And, Bob's spot on: we are the ground forces, and have state law in one pocket, and common sense in the other. We identify on the heavy side of reasonable doubt. And that's a fair standard!
Cheers, dears!
Susie
| Reply by Joe Ewing on 5/20/07 6:44pm
Msg #191029
I have seen this several dozen times. Mostly on Refi loans but also on Sellers and purchasers ID's. The borrower took title and dropped the suffix. I suppose it's now up to you to make a reasonable judgment.
Last year a borrower in his 50's told me his son"a JR." took out a loan using his credit (Social Security Number). Junior produced his ID that matched his fathers name but was 25 years younger. He secured the loan. Junior then failed to even make one payment and the lender came right after the father for the money. The Refi was being done to pay off the son's bogus loan. A lot of people dropped the ball on that bad loan.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/22/07 12:59am
Msg #191244
"A lot of people dropped the ball on that bad loan"...True
story.
And the identifier? Has statutory ID requirements, and lender additionals.
And, Common Sense.
We, who do our best to identify, cannot be the last bastion of truth, much as we would like to be. We are constrained by ID presented, common sense, and legal compliance.
I asked a hypothetical some months back: Are we mandatory reporters? Of abuse? Of Loan Sharking? Of Suspisions?
Big questions.
| Reply by jba/fl on 5/21/07 12:23am
Msg #191047
I can't speak for AZ, only FL. State's rights prevail here, so check your laws.
To qualify my statements, I am speaking of male signers.
In FL, whatever name in on one's birth certificate is the name that goes on the DL (99%). So, you have Raymond Charles Brown, Jr. on both. But, Mr. Brown may only sign Raymond C. Brown on DL, and that is allowed. So is RC Brown, ie, whatever he chooses to sign. The other identifier to tie these docs together is SS card/#, which again is usually what shows on birth cert.
Unfortunately, borrowers apply for credit and sometimes get lax, using Ray Brown, RC Brown and other variations. This can result in confusion later on, esp. when someone applies for refi and/or dies. So loan docs have every variation on Signature/AKA Affidavits, etc. because those come from the credit bureau reports, which IMHO have idiots entering data into those reports, not necessarily paying attention to details and sometimes getting another individual's name/credit infused with Mr. Brown's.
Whatever name on the loan docs is the name that Mr. Brown used to take title to his property. That will be the name he signs, however it is printed.
Your job: more on ID is usually ok, less is not. Does his signature match (reasonably, as most are on signing pads these days making us all look like we are a little long in the tooth). As another poster said, you are in their home: photos, plaques, certificates, kids calling him Dad and so on, and if you are in their office people there appear to know him...
Even when I have SS# in front of me, I ask them to rattle it off to me - another way to decide validity of ID's presented me.
Would I call for redraw? no - but if bor. says they changed their name or showed me a previous quit claim deed asking for changes that for some reason didn't get recorded I get copy of that doc to return w/loan pkg. Do I make note of ID name? yes on patriot forms and other ID forms, citing source doc(s).
Like writing a term paper: cite your sources, give references where needed. If something needs to be redone, that will be decided when TC has file returned.
Now, as to ladies ID's: whole nutter matter, not for tonight.
| Reply by lenelle/FL on 5/21/07 7:33am
Msg #191067
I agree with jba/fl on this one...
Of course, I am also in Florida. To me your issue would be of concern if it were the other way around and they wanted him to sign with the Jr., and he had no ID with "Jr" on it.
| Reply by Gerry_VT on 5/21/07 9:34am
Msg #191078
Junior
I live in a state where neither the statutes nor the SOS's notary manual gives any definite guideance about checking ID. If someone showed a driver's license that did not have Jr. on it, and wanted to sign Jr. on the document, I would let them, if everything else appeared to be in order. My reasoning:
1. I've never seen any law that says Jr. is part of the name.
2. Jr. might be on the deed because the property was bought from, or inherited from, the father, and it was necessary to distinguish the two men in the deed. Since I don't think Jr. is an official part of the name, I don't think it is my responsibility to figure out why it says Jr. on the deed.
3. The son might not have put the Jr. on the drivers license for any of several good reasons, such as (a) the father was dead when the license was obtained, (b) the son didn't think his father's name was any of the DMV's business, or (c) Jr. was not on the son's birth certificate and the DMV refused to put Jr. on the license.
| Reply by MelissaCT on 5/21/07 11:06am
Msg #191095
Re: Junior may not have fit on DL with a long surname n/m
| Reply by Pat/IL on 5/21/07 10:08am
Msg #191083
In my experience, it is rare to see the drivers license, title vesting and lender's version of the name all match up. The names on the lender's documents should match the title vesting which, in a perfect world, would also match the borrower's ID. There are too many people involved, from the original purchase to our signing, however, who ignore my version of paradise.
I am in total agreement with all of the posters who suggest you should simply follow your state's guidelines in IDing your borrowers. Where I depart company with some of the posters is with the use of the Signature Name Affidavit. While not a catch-all, it is a useful document that can aid in the perfection of the lien by tying the different versions of the name together. The document has, in my experience, proven to be an adequate solution, for both the title company and the lender, to the common name variations. That is why I always try to be sure that any variations are noted on the Signature Name Affidavit.
It is not the notary's function to determine whether the signers are the owners of the property. That is the title company's role. The title company has the benefit of prior documents (the purchase money mortgage, for example) to compare the signatures. The title employees are not necessarily experts on penmanship, of course, but it is an available tool and, in my opinion, part of due dilligence.
| Reply by Jens302 on 5/21/07 2:39pm
Msg #191162
Here's one for you:
Driver License shows FIRST, MIDDLE, MARRIED LAST NAME.
Loan docs has FIRST, MAIDEN LAST NAME, MARRIED LAST NAME.
|
|
