Posted by Linda_in_MI on 5/19/07 4:16pm
Msg #190962

Elderly parent signing QCD

I have been asked to notarize a QCD for an elderly parent who wants to give house to daughter #2. Daughter #2 has QCD forms. According to daughter #2 "Mom is sharp as a tack, but just can't talk due to a trach". However, in the course of talking on the phone with daughter #2, she told me of sibling tensions; long story short, Mom wants sign QCD, but daughter #1 doesn't want Mom to do this.

I know the primary duties of a notary are confirm identities, ensure the individual whose signature we are notarizing has their full mentals about them, is aware of the document they are signing and is not being forced to sign anything. But is anyone aware of any type of statement available that I could take to have Mom sign to state she is fully aware and signing the QCD of her own free will? TIA

Reply by Lee/AR on 5/19/07 6:59pm
Msg #190974

Not an attorney & don't even watch 'em on TV, so take this with the whole box of salt:
If she's not alert, aware, etc., she'll sign whatever you take with you to CYA as readily as she'll sign the QCD. Just you make sure that she's got all her marbles and is not being 'leaned on'. She may not be able to speak, but she can WRITE. Make sure Daughter #2 is NOT in the room---not even within earshot when this is done so Mom can 'write' freely to you. Kick daughter out, if necessary.

Reply by OR on 5/19/07 7:06pm
Msg #190976

I would not do it. You are not a Doctor and clearly there is conflict in this family. No amount of money is worth getting caught up in a mess with two Sisters. You may end up in court trying to defend your self . IMHO. Like I said before I would not do it.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/19/07 9:31pm
Msg #190985

Lee, Your idea about writing is a good one, but dang, this is a tough one. If mom is in bed with a trach it sounds like no matter whether she can write or not she's under medical care.

Secondly, if this woman is at home and not in a hospital she is obviously going to do whatever she needs to not to be mistreated IF there is any duress involved.

If it were me, I'd leave it alone...however, just musing here, I'd be interested to hear the answer that #2 would respond with if you asked her if there was a legal or medical professional who could just give a verbal yay or nay over the phone about the woman's mental capacity.

Understand that I would never take it that far, but the devil's advocate side of me comes out and I would be interested in the response to that question.

When I have concerns about mental capacity when the call comes in I'd just tell the caller in this case that they probably need to get the law office they used to get the deed to send out someone to notarize the sign off. (What??? No lawyer involved?? Wow...you might want to get one if there is that much property involved.)

People will do all kinds of things not to go through the right channels to get something done correctly. Usually because they are cheap and the think they can get by with whatever they want to do...true story:

Many years ago my own family asked me to notarize a will for my grandmother with Alzheimer's. Her 1/2 of the marital estate would be all left to her children upon death and not to my grandfather. He seemed to okay with that at the time, but what could he say with four grown kids determined to do it that way? It was a sizeable amount worth bickering over.

He had a will which left his half divided half to her and half to the kids. She didn't have a will because for whatever reason the story was that she didn't want to have a will. Some danged greedy kids determined to have their way if you ask me.

Wonder why I don't like to be around my dad's side of the family very much? Oh yeah, and I didn't do it. And, one more thing...my dad and one aunt were grabby, one aunt was a retired corporate environmental attorney who was grabby, and one was just going with the flow because he didn't want to make waves with the older ones. Thankfully, however, they are all good church going Christians. Except for my grandfather. He was an athiest.

Reply by Julie/MI on 5/19/07 9:32pm
Msg #190986

Isn't it funny how people get what my friends and I call "babbleitus" when they are full of nervous chatter and should simply be quiet but instead they give too much information?

Not that the humble notary should know this, but survivorship clauses on the grantee line are very important. If the mother added daughter #2 along with her own name and it said as tenants in common (which these amatures aka do it your selfers) upon death the home goes to the living person and the deceased person's estate, so daughter #1 may still have a little hope. Now if it said as joint tenants with full rights of survivorship, then daughter #1 gets nothing. Then again, if in the grantee area, the daughter didn't put the mother's name along with her own, she pulled the home from out from under her mom.

So basically, I pull a Marcia Brady as my friends and I call it, and say something has suddenly come up and not do it. Too bad daughter had to talk too much, but even I would stay away from this one.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/19/07 9:39pm
Msg #190987

Very, very good post, Julie. You are so right. n/m

Reply by SharonMN on 5/20/07 8:35pm
Msg #191033

Let me put forth another point of view. A woman, who happens to be elderly and disabled, wants to sign some papers. As far as I can tell, there is no indication at all that she has any issues with mental capacity or duress. She simply had a family member call you because she can't talk. Everyone here seems to be extrapolating that she's some helpless confused lady that's being pressured by her daughters. Why should we assume this woman should be denied notary services?

Reply by jba/fl on 5/21/07 12:39am
Msg #191052

Goes to ready, willing and able. We can assume the ready and able, but willing is to be questioned - free will, not will of another which would be under duress.

Reply by Joe Ewing on 5/21/07 2:49am
Msg #191060

Knowing what I know through years of real experience, unless the caller is an Attorney, I add an extra 50% to my travel fees to cover the extra paperwork. Then I quote my fee. Statistic. 90% of all lawsuits involving Notaries have to do with elderly signers. Every letter I have received from a lawyer requesting a line out of my journal and a written statement on what transpired during the notarization had to do with the signer being elderly. If you have lack of experience with this type of request and unless you pre-qualify this notarial act down to the color of the signers eyes you should just pass it on to another notary or be prepared to write a lot more info in your journal that the state requires.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/21/07 6:41am
Msg #191063

Joe's point was my point in my answer. I don't have Joe's experience with attorneys callng me for lines out of my journal but I did have occasion to talk to a private investigator whose client was seeking a notary involved in an elder situation...all I could think of is I was glad it was not me involved.

I wasn't thinking of the senior in this case, my answer was based on the notary not getting a bunch grief.

Reply by Lee/AR on 5/21/07 8:18am
Msg #191071

Just have to share this: M-I-L lived with us for the last 3 years of her life. While going thru her papers after her death, we found 3 Wills--leaving her home & all contents to youngest child in family. Different dates on envelopes containing Wills. None of 'em were signed. Funny thing is, M-I-L didn't own the home; we did. Was there a conniving youngest child? Yep. Did Mom know this? Yep. Did Mom ever tell conniving child she didn't own the home? Nope. Why? Who knows.

Am currently reading a book where the 'side story' has a elderly lady who had a Will drawn up leaving MILLIONS to various relatives & provided each with a copy of the Will. Lady doesn't have millions--is barely surviving, but has a good story about the millions and now has a bunch of relatives who are very nice to her, visit often, bring her gifts, take her out to dinner. Never underestimate the elderly. LOL I have no idea what prompted me to share this.

Reply by Linda_in_MI on 5/21/07 10:43am
Msg #191091

I want to thank all who responded. You gave me a lot to think about and some perspective I hadn’t thought of. That is what is so great about this board.

When sibling tensions came into the conversation that was a red flag for me. This was why I asked about a statement for Mom to sign stating she was aware of what she was signing, and signing entirely of her own free will without duress from anyone. Lee/AR, I was also thinking of talking with Mom first by herself without anyone else in the room to determine her mental state and then having her sign some type of free will statement before she signed the QCD, both with others present. Julie/MI, thanks for your expertise on the wording involved with the QCD. This humble notary has now learned something, to caution those DYIs to seek legal advice in sticky situations.

For the record, I plan on calling daughter#2 and asking her if this is a do-it-yourself-bought-from-the-office-supply-store QCD or if she had a legal eagle type advise her. Depending on her answer, I will—with emphases on the fact that I am not an attorney— caution her to seek legal counsel to verify the wording of the form before having Mom sign. And then depending on additional response, I may end up advising that, even though I sympathize with the unfortunate relationship with her sister (that came out of the babbleitis—thanks for that term Julie !) and with potential consequences arising from Mother’s medical situation I have concerns about the entire matter and will not be able to notarize the QCD for her.